Featured Total Depravity or Free Will in this tract?

I believe you are wrong and have not done a decent study or exposition of this chapter. Realize that Romans chapters 10-12 concern themselves primarily with Israel, but that doesn't mean that everything in those chapters are applicable only to the Jews.

[FONT=&quot]Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
--In the above three verses Paul establishes his desire that his kinsmen, Israel, be saved.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
--But starting here, in verse four, he outlines the basics of salvation for all (Jew and Gentile alike). This is one of the great missionary chapters of the Bible.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
--The above verses are applicable to all, not just the Jews.
--Righteousness is not of works; righteousness is of faith.
--Salvation is through the gospel--vs. 8: "the word of faith" which we preach
--Confess...Believe...Be saved. It has been taught this way for years. Yes, it is biblical.
--With the heart man believes...With the mouth confession is made...
All of this is for both Jew and Gentile.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
--There is no difference between Jew and Greek.
Vs. 13 is a summary verse of vs. 9 and 10. "Whosoever" means "all".

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
--Some of the greatest missionary verses in the Bible. They ought to provoke us to preach to those who have never heard the gospel before. The Bible has one interpretation but many applications. Though it was written in the first century these very important verses still apply to us today.

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
--This is a typical response. All will not obey the gospel. Paul is both quoting from Isaiah, and using it for an example.

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
--Those who believe will have faith. That faith comes from the Word (not directly from God as the Calvinist says). The gospel had spread.
As Adam Clarke says:

And the answer is YES!

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.[/FONT]

But I say...
But Israel says...
But to Israel he says...

The last three verses seem to be four exclusions to the main part of the passage. Each one starts with "But." But the main part of what Paul had to say about salvation is done. It is both for the Jew and Gentile as he has already so eloquently described. The objective reader can hardly miss this.

 

Just what I thought, you haven't any. You bare a false witness against your neighbor, and worse yet, your brother in Christ. Shameful........

 

Nice dodge tactic, so that you can deflect from the issue. Maybe if you expended as much energy toward the issue as you do trying to become offended.....

Or expend a little energy reading your own posts.

Good grief.

 

Sorry, no deflection. Anytime a poster begins to bare a false witness I stop the debating and no longer take them seriously. You bare a false witness and then expect your victim to dig through his own post to prove his innocence. That's laughable. ( Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Oh, you say you don't beat your wife? Then prove it! Go back and read your post and show me you don't beat your wife. ) You made the charge, you back it up with just one quote, and make sure it is in context. I won't be holding my breath. raying:

 

Consider yourself excused then, I guess. I honestly don't even know what "charge" you're talking about. You never once specifically mentioned exactly what hurt your feelings. You made a generic reference to me accusing you of heresy, then challenged me to put something into quotes?

You promote a sinner's prayer conversion
Scripture calls it is an antichrist heresy.


Now what do I need to quote? Are you espousing the view or not? Go back and read your own posts if you aren't sure what you've been arguing for.

Now we've wasted about six posts, and a couple of hours of time with your childish nonsense. It's downright putrid. Either demonstrate from scripture what you've been espousing, or concede the point and repent from your man made traditions.

Embrace Christ, Steaver. Not some superstitious prayer. It is a work, just like baptism is a work. If you think that you access the grace of God through your own effort, and you refuse to acknowledge it as unbiblical, you will find out all too late that you didn't access God's grace at all.

 

That is simply opinion which has no factual basis in Scripture.
If it did, you would be able to point to some concrete scripture that is not up for debate in its interpretation. Provide scripture instead of inferring that most of the members on the board who have prayed to ask Christ to save them believe an antichrist heresy. That is a terrible accusation to make.

If you don't believe me, do a poll. How were people on the board saved? Did they pray?

 

Now you are really making yourself look bad. I gave the quote when I challenged your accusation. Here it is again since you have a short memory.....

"But none of that would matter if your "whosoever says this prayer" heresy were true. If your take on that scripture were correct, it would work every time, whether someone believes the gospel or not."

Now you can surely find one quote of mine to support this charge if it be so evident in my postings. Still waiting.................

You haven't been here to long James. You will find that your prideful attitude and arrogance will not get you far. Seen many like you come and go. You need to humble yourself and when you do wrong just apologize and admit when you misrepresent a person's position. You think you have all the answers and you alone have the perfect understanding of how it all works and anyone who disagrees is just a heretic. 1Cor13 needs to be part of your studies brother.

More accusations James? You saying I'm lost? You need to do a bit more thinking before you speak less you get yourself in trouble here on the BB brother. Try a little love :love2: .........raying:

 

Man, I really don't have time for your Kindergarten mentality. But I've been beaten up enough by your insistence that I'm spreading false information. So, for anyone else who might be duped by your false innocence.......

ok, man. From this thread alone:

Now, from a post of your in a different thread:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2114588&postcount=76

Numerous times in this thread alone, you have said someone must ASK for salvation.

And in the last quote from you, you said WHOSOEVER, and in the same sentence, TO EVERYONE WHO ASK.

And you also said that ASKING is a PRAYER for redemption.


Now, as I've already stated......YOU HAVE most assuredly purported the notion of "whosoever prays this prayer..."

And that is heresy. Eternal life is granted to those who BELIEVE upon Christ. NOT by praying a prayer.

Praying a prayer is a WORK


Look at this Roman Catholic ACT of Contrition:

Act of Contrition

O my God, I am heartily sorry for
having offended you, and I detest
all my sins, because of Your just
punishments, but most of all because
they offend You, my God, who are
all-good and deserving of all my love.
I firmly resolve, with the help of
Your grace, to sin no more and to
avoid the near occasion of sin.



Act of Contrition (modern)

My God, I am sorry for my sins with all my heart.
In choosing to do wrong and failing to do good,
I have sinned against you whom I should love above all things.
I firmly intend, with your help, to do penance, to sin no more,
and to avoid whatever leads me to sin.
Our Savior Jesus Christ suffered and died for us.
In His name, my God, have mercy.
Amen.


It's an ACT, a work. And it sounds like a modern sinner's prayer:

God, I confess that I'm a sinner
I'm sorry for my sins.
Jesus, I thank you that you died for me
I turn from my sins now
I give my life to you
Forgive me of my sins
Come into my heart
Help me follow you
Amen



OK ?????

 

Prayer is a work for believers. For the unbeliever is an act or an expression of faith.

Talk with the Catholics on the Other Christ. Denom. Forum who believe that they are in Christ. They will tell you that these prayers are from believers and for believers.
"I am sorry for my sins." That is the prayer of a Christian, nor for one becoming a Christian. In that sense, yes, prayer is a work we all should be engaged in. It is one of the "works" of the believer.

Not OK. First, I wouldn't word it exactly like that.
But most importantly of all it is an act of faith, an expression of faith. It is not the prayer that saves, and that must always be stressed. It is the faith expressed through the prayer that saves.
Communication with God is a two-way street. God speaks to us through His Word. But there must be an answer back. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. That answer back is via prayer. That is the way we "call upon the name of the Lord," and be saved. And that is not unscriptural.

 

You must have missed this quote from me, unless you purposely left it out that you may take the others out of the context of the conversation....

So this statement of yours is false......

As I have already stated, just saying a prayer does not justify, that would indeed be heresy. But it is certainly biblical for those who are pricked in their hearts of the Truth to believe and to call upon the Lord to be given that saving faith which is the sealing by the Holy Spirit indwellement, a new creation.

Of course you may be in the Calvinist camp which declares one is made to believe via regeneration first and then they call upon the Lord? I believe as the Scripture declares and that is we are to ask for the Holy Spirit if it so be that we have been convicted of the Truth and want to be saved.

 

You use an awful lot of words to justify a heretical tradition.

Prayer is a work for believers, but not a work for unbelievers?

You ought to be ashamed of yourself

 

[FONT=&quot]Luke 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.[/FONT]

The publican "prayed," "Lord be merciful to me a sinner."
Jesus said, "This man went down to his house justified rather than the other.

You ought to be ashamed of yourself of accusing the Lord Jesus Christ of holding to "heretical traditions."

 

Yeah, I know. That publican and that Pharisee went to a "service" to get saved, right?
They had already heard that Jesus died, even before He dis, right?

This publican obviously confessed Jesus as Lord, AND believed in his heart that God had raised Him from the dead, even though Jesus died.....right????

That is, after all, what Romans 10:9-10 says.

Now the publican is part of an unqualified "whosoever", right?
And tomorrow you'll qualify the "whosoever" and effectively exclude him

Not even possible that "justified" actually has a normal linguistic definition, instead of the theological definition you have in mind.

Kind of like when Church of Christ and RCC thinking of baptize as "dip in water for the remission of sins". No way at all that "baptize" means immerse, without special qualification


Same thing with "justified". No way at all that word has a simple linguistic definition that means "declared just, or warranted" and not "saved from hell"

What if you get an evaluation at work, and because of that you get a raise? You would be justified in receiving the raise. Your boss is justified in giving you the raise. It simply means that your raise was warranted, based on the evaluation

And not even possible that He was asking for temporal forgiveness?

You want to read into this account, and demand that unbelievers mimic this scenario, with what you can infer? Well, I can infer, from the fact that he was in the temple, that he had some kind of offering. Why aren't you telling unbelievers they need to go to the temple?

Are you telling unbelievers to bring grain, a turtle dove, etc???

Anything you can do to twist a passage. I think I'm gonna shake the dust off my feet with you. It's clear you're willing to go to any length to protect your tradition

 

James, can you give us your evaluation of how one receives the Holy Spirit rebirth, the "when", the timing so to speak.

When Peter stood up and preached Jesus Christ crucified (Acts 2) and those listening were pricked in their hearts and asked "what shall we do?", did they ask this because unbeknown to them they had been born again while hearing the gospel, or did they ask this because they were not yet born again (saved) and were worried they had condemned themselves by rejecting the Christ?

 

Those in Acts 2 were already "saved" through faith before Jesus died on the cross. It's a long explanation, but hangs on them being described as "devout" in verse 5.

This Greek word was used only 3 other times in the NT

Like 2:25 - Simeon, waiting for the consolation if Israel
Acts 8:2 - the believers who carried away Stephen's body
Acts 22:16 - when Paul recounted Annanias laying hands on him

They had consented to having their own Messiah put to death. They had been counted as righteousness already. But their heinous sin was preventing them from receiving the promised Holy Spirit.

It was unique, in that Jesus had been crucified only 7 weeks prior. Those Jewish believers who were credited with righteousness prior to the cross, but were still alive after He died....where were they? How did they go from merely being "viewed" as righteous, to the new heart and new spirit prophesied to come in the new covenant?

They were right there from Passover to Pentecost, living in Jerusalem from feast to feast (see Deut 16 for this requirement). They threw down palm branches in front of Him one day, and cried out "crucify Him" a week later.

Peter said "This Jesus, who YOU crucified"

They were most assuredly pricked in their hearts, because God was "with" them. But God would not be "in" them until they had a change of mind about Jesus (repent), and be baptized in His name. That let all the other Jews know they had indeed believed upon Him.

So in short, they were "saved", but were not born again because the Spirit had not been given.

I explained this in a thread several months ago when rebutting the Church of Christ view of baptismal regeneration. I'll try to find it later and post a link


Take a look at Acts 10, where Peter preached at Cornelius's house. Verse 43 says "while he was still speaking" the Spirit came upon them.

There are several expressions in the NT which tell us what happens

2Tim 2:25 Come to a knowledge of the truth
Gal 3-2 believing what you heard
1Pet 1:23-25 Born again by incorruptible seed, the word of God, the good news

There are others, too. But not without the Holy Spirit convicting of sin and righteousness, and enlightening the mind. Arbitrarily? Not at all. The soil has a responsibility to be receptive (passive, not active) of the seed.


Like when a professor is teaching, and a student does nothing but argue and reject it. One might say the student is unteachable. He has a responsibility. Not to "do" something, but a responsibility to stop rejecting.

Many can't see the distinction. But if that student would simply stop rejecting everything that professor says, his mind will be changed. He will learn truth. He's not doing anything. Learning isn't something we do, it happens to us when we're teachable.

But what if this guy never expresses his knowledge? What if he's always projected an image of someone who has nothing to learn? What if he thinks his friends will razz him for yielding? Does this mean he never came to know truth?

See John 12:37-43 for this type of scenario. Many rulers believed upon Christ, but were not confessing Him

 

This is total nonsense.

 

The fact is that he prayed.
Fact 2 is that his prayer was very humble compared to the Pharisee.
Fact 3 is that his prayer was directed to God and not to himself as the Pharisee's was.
Fact 4 is that his prayer was a vehicle of his faith.
Fact 5, which you totally ignore, is that Jesus declared him righteousness because of his action which involved prayer.
You ignore the facts. You are the one reading into this passage things that are not there.

He called on the Lord, even as the thief on the cross did.
Jesus counted him as righteous. That is the information we have.
No further eisigesis on your part is needed.

Pure speculation and innuendo on your part. I gave you the facts and you reply with disdain. Not much of a debater are you?

The scenario is with the publican in Luke 18. Your diversion into the Catholic Church is a non sequitor.

It was Jesus who declared him righteous or justified.
The Word says:
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God (Rom.5:1).
--Jesus declared that he was justified. He had faith, faith that was expressed through a prayer of repentance. Take your argument up with Christ, not with me.

a non sequitor again.
The unsaved are non-electrictians so to speak. They don't get raises.
Here is where the truth is elaborated on:

[FONT=&quot]Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.[/FONT]
--Abraham's works had nothing to do with his righteousness, justification, etc. Had he couldn't even rate as an electrician to do the works of an electrician so to speak. He wasn't justified by works, any kind of works. He was justified by faith and only faith. There would be no raise.
To him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness.
--Faith in Christ is not a work.

He was a publican, a despised and wicked tax collector, who was hated among all levels of society. He was not considered as one of the devout worshipers by any.

He went to the temple. There is no indication that they were IN the temple at the time. You infer a lot with your eisigesis. They were probably just in the outer court, as this man was a publican and could not get close to the actual Temple.

More eisigesis. You are reading more into it than Jesus told. What did Jesus say:
[FONT=&quot]Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:[/FONT]
--Jesus used parables to teach one central truth. Here was the truth: Earnest and sincere prayer, prayed in faith, brings results, and those who trust in themselves and their own righteousness don't.

You are the one with tradition here. You have developed an unscriptural doctrine where there is none by reading into Scripture things that are not there. That is not how you refute Scripture. In this you have failed miserably.

 

I don't think you thought through the total implications of your view here. If it be so that they were saved even though they rejected their Messiah and believed not on Him, then all Jews, even today, who reject Jesus Christ as Messiah, yet have faith Messiah will come, are saved, even though they believe not in the One God has sent as Messiah.