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Total Depravity

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by HankD, Jan 14, 2006.

  1. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Thank you for a direct (but possibly a diplomatic) answer.

    Although I do agree with it.

    But can we say that anything God values has to be good does it not?

    HankD
    </font>[/QUOTE]I don't know the answer but this is my guess: No. Maybe God can value what can be redeemed and/or what he created, even if it's corrupted by sin.
     
  2. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I am not sure whom you are addressing. :confused:

    I made the first statement quoted above but not the second. Are you asking about a contradiction between these 2 statements? If you are, then you should know they were not made by the same person.
     
  3. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    I think "GIFT" is the key word here, a gift isn't forced upon anyone, nor withheld from any who "WILL" accept it.

    The "Gift" is laid at the altar, "WHOSOEVER WILL" can pick up the gift, at the altar.


    "The key to heaven was hung on the cross".
     
  4. donnA

    donnA Active Member

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    I think the whole thing is a sovereignty (sp?) issue. Is God in control or is He not? Does God give up control to man? Haven't seen that in scripture.
     
  5. exscentric

    exscentric Well-Known Member
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    First statement was yours and the verse tends to go against that statement.

    the next two lines were response to one of the other posts.

    Sorry for the confusion.
     
  6. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    How does the verse go against what I say? I don't think that eating the tree gave man the capacity to know good from evil, it gave them the experiential knowledge of evil. They already knew it was wrong to eat from the tree or they would not have hid from God. Also, God told them not to eat from it and even Eve said this to the serpent. They knew it was wrong but had not sinned yet so they had not experienced doing wrong (sinning).

    They had the ability to know right from wrong before eating the fruit, at least the ability to know it was wrong to disobey God and eat from that tree. That's a understanding of right and wrong, or we could say, good and evil. Adam and Eve were deciding what was good over and against what God had said was good (and bad).
     
  7. blackbird

    blackbird Active Member

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    Total depravity?? I wrote this down in the flyleaf of my Bible---the thought just "dawned" upon me---that ever happens to any of you??

    Anyway---with the thought in mind--we hear preachers giving a Pulpit plea during "Invitation Time" to "give your life to Jesus"

    Here's my thought on Total Depravity

    Becoming a "Believer" is not giving Him YOUR life!----You don't have a life to give! You are "dead in trespasses and sins" and how much life does a dead man have??? Becoming a "Believer" ---rather---is Jesus giving HIS life to you! Jesus is the only one with a life to give!!

    Romans 5:10 teaches that we are "saved by His life"---and that life is more than just the one He had while doing Earthly ministry! We are not saved by the life of Jesus of Galilee---but we are saved by the life of Jesus of Heaven---Post-Resurrection Jesus!
     
  8. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OK, so far most people are addressing what we do and the potential for evil due to the sin nature and our helplessness to save ourselves rather than whether there is any intrinsic worth in man because he is created in the image and likeness of God.

    Someone PM'd me and said we are part of God's creation of which He said it was "very good".

    Did we lose all that goodness in the fall?

    So what do you think, does the scripture teach that there is absolutely nothing good in man?

    I assume that Total Depravity means that we are morally depraved but what about the intrinsic value of man in God's sight?

    The Scripture indicates that even the unregenerate have been created in His image.

    Are the unregenerate who bear His image worthless in God's sight?

    Does He consider them just a kind of a human flotsam and jetsum to be cast into the lake of fire in the end?

    HankD
     
  9. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    Here is what Scripture says:

    Romans 3:9-18

    Accroding to the Bible, the answers to your above questions in the quote would be yes.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Thank you Joseph.

    Anyone else?

    How does the Scripture which Joseph pointed out relate to John 3:16?

    HankD
     
  11. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick <img src=/532.jpg>Banned

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    That, I believe, is answered in the conclusion of that passage which states the following:

    God sent his son to die as an atonement for our sins because he loved us. All who recieve by faith this free gift from God, will be saved and restored. The lost, however, do not seek God and have become altogether worthless because of their totally depraved sin natures, which shows the grace and mercy of God that he would still die for our sins and save any of us. There is no boasting in salvation, save in the death of Christ our Lord. It is God who saves us and gives us the faith to believe and equips us to do the work that God has set before us:

    2 Corinthians 3:4-5

    When I read this passage last night in my Bible reading plan, it reminded me of Moses at the burning bush, making excuses as to why all his weaknesses would keep him from doing what God told him to do. God's response each time to each excuse was "I will be with you". It is the power of God which gets beyond the total depravity of man (our spiritual weakness) and transforms and saves us (God is with us). Only God can give us that kind of faith. It certainly is not something we sought out ourselves, or would have been capable of having since we were slaves to sin.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  12. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Adam and Eve were created in the image of God:

    Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    However after the Fall, man carried the image of his fallen father:

    Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
     
  13. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Grasshoppper:
    Even after the fall man is said to be in the image of God (Genesis 9).

    Joseph:
    Agreed, without God we have no value because He is the source of all goodness.

    James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

    Without God we have no power because He is the source of all power.

    John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

    The image of God:
    I had a coin once which was classified as extremely rare and valuble except for one thing.

    It had a gouge on the face.

    I took it to a coin dealer who looked at it and said "It has no value, it's been defaced".

    It was the pristine image on the coin that gave the coin it's value.

    The image of God can and has been restored in the children of God:

    2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
     
  14. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    It relates more to Psalm 14, where it is directly quoted from. This is talking about the "fool", not all mankind.
     
  15. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    While Ps. 14 does mention the fool, it also mentions all of mankind.

    The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good.
    The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. (NKJV)

    God looked upon the children of men- that mean's mankind, and he saw that none were good. That they were all corrupt, not just the fool. Also all who are without Christ are fools.
     
  16. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Can the sovereignty of God be logically upheld through “extrinsically efficacious grace” allowing man to have a free will to accept salvation and to come to God for it all to exist together according to God’s will? I think it can and total depravity is superfluous to the discussion as it is interpreted in so many different ways and always ends up in a circular debate; the idea of all these things working together for salvation is opposed by the doctrines of Calvinism and Arminianism as impossible to be compatible so is lost while trying to make these systems fit. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.
     
  17. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Jesus himself did not seem to have been a believer in Total Inability. We read in Mark 4:11,12 that he spoke in parables as a judgment against the obstinate Jews. The purpose of parables was to keep his message from entering their ears, "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven" (v.12). Had those stiff-necked people been allowed to hear the truth straight out, they might have turned to receive it. But how? Calvinism tells us that no one can turn and receive the forgiveness of sins because of Total Inability passed from Adam. There must first be an inward miracle of the heart, an "effectual call."

    Calvinist preachers will sometimes say that they can never persuade natural men of the gospel no matter how openly, clearly and earnestly they may preach it. It is like presenting a sermon to a corpse - there is no response. Jesus, however, felt it necessary to obscure his message in parables to keep certain people from responding to it. Had he preached the truth openly they would have turned and been forgiven. This fact alone is fatal to the Calvinist dogma, for it contradicts the notion that all men have a native inability to believe.

    more here
     
  18. takor

    takor New Member

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    Hello Hellen, Thank you for the welcome.
    Also, Benjamin I agree with your statement and verses given.

    Another thought: I think that there are subjects in the Bible that seem to contradict, but, with a closer examination we will see that they do not. Example: The two natures of our Lord Jesus Christ. If one is trained to see only the human nature, that is all that he is going to see. If he is trained to see the divine nature then again, that is all that person will see. Why not simply accept that Christ had two natures?
    In our case here I have seen statements that support total depravity or total free will. There are verses in the Bible to support anything we want to support but, are those verses legitimate for the subject we are trying to support?
    I can clearly see the sovereignty of God and the free will of man to choose.
    I do believe that all starts with God, meaning that God is the one who initiates the call. Look these verses up.
    Proverbs 1:23; Isaiah 31:6, 59:20; Ezekiel 14:6, 18:32, 9:11; Joel 2:12;
    Matthew 18:3; Acts 3:19; Hebrews 6:1.
    The call is for repentance. Then the person is free to choose, after God has called. The knowledge of God comes first then the person rejects or accepts.
    Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
    Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
    Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
    Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
    I am not Calvinist nor Arminianist I am a BIBLICIST ( I think that is how it is spelled)
    In Gods table of truth there is sovereignty and there is free will. And I am not talking about salvation by works, because it is the gift of God. God provides salvation by grace and we are responsible to accept the invitation. Faith is not works either as I saw someone writing. Faith is the acceptance of Gods gift to us “but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. “

    Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    In Christ
     
  19. JBHorn

    JBHorn New Member

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    Sounds like you're making a case for Sovereign Grace to me.

    JB
     
  20. takor

    takor New Member

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    The image used in Genesis is the word “icon” as in picture.
    The word image used in Hebrews is the word “character” which is an engraving like on a coin without the character on the coin the coin has no value. That is why Jesus is the express image of God meaning without Jesus we have no true knowledge of God. Jesus said to Phillip “if you have seen me you have seen the father”
    Man, I can preach on that.!!!
    Now we are not the image that Christ is of God but we are an icon of God.
    Hope this helps
    In christ
     
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