Total Depravity

Yelsew, as long as you refuse to deal with the Scriptures which utterly refutee your ideas I see no real need to address Ray's presentation.

I will only say that you are trying to overcome very explicit scriptures with ones with more obscure meanings. That's bad exegesis, and it will get you into trouble theologically... as evidently it has.

 

Latreia,
I believe you are taking scripture out of context to make it say what you want it to say! For example the Romans 3:20 passage you quoted is part of the story that begins in Romans 1 and continues through Romans 4 explaining God's relationship with the Jews. Out side of that context Romans 3:20 has no explicit meaning, except what you make it to mean.

So why is your stance any better than mine which you have so ignorantly criticized?

[ December 28, 2002, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

Latreia, You make some very broad brush statements that you have failed to support with or without scripture.

The fact is, Latreia, if you do not understand the human that God created you to be, you are not going to understand God. God created us in His image. Jesus, God's Son told us that God is spirit. To be in the image of God means that we are spirit, not divine spirit as God is divine spirit, but spirit known as human. To understand that Human spirit one must be able to recognize it by its attributes. God has attributes, we are in his image, so we must have similar attributes. One of God's attributes is free will. If God has free will and we are in His image then we too have free will. If God has Grace "the grace of God" then we too have grace, limited to human grace, etc.

Attributes are something that is true of the one having them. Attributes are not something that one gives away, but rather what govern the behavior of the one possessing them. If you have Love as an attribute, you do not, and cannot, give away your love, but you do behave in accordance with your love toward another. It is your communication, and gift giving and other behavioral traits that persuade the other that you do in fact have love for them. That persuasion 'turns on' the other whom you hope will respond in kind.

God's attributes work for Him in the same manner. Grace is a dominant attribute of God that constrains His justice, enhances His love, enables His mercy, etc. All the while we are the beneficiaries of God's Grace because if His grace did not constrain his Justice, we could never survive the wages of Sin.

I believe that God created man higher and better than all other creatures by making man in his own image. Therefore to claim that man cannot be better than his nature is to say that man cannot change. If you know anything at all about human nature, you know that the only constant in and for man is change. We change from conception to birth, mostly physical change to be capable of survival outside the womb. Then we continue to change through various stages, infant, toddler, child, adolescent, teen, and finally adult. We don't stop there, we pass through the stages of adulthood too, young adult, middle aged adult, senior adult and finally arrive at old age where we have little to do but ponder our mortality and deal with diminished capacity until this physical body dies. I can testify to you that my spirit remained quite young and vibrant throughout my six decades, and remains so today. My spirit has not aged, but it has become more mature, more responsible, closer to God and it is increasingly eager to be with God my creator, savior.

Man's nature changes in accordance with what man believes. Jesus told us that believing in him brings everlasting life. That is dramatic change! Jesus said that if we have faith the size of a mustard seed that we can remove mountains. What mountains is he speaking of? What are earth mountains to spirit? The mountains that Jesus is speaking of are those obstacles that hinder the spirit; sin, attitude, false doctrine, stinkin' thinkin', etc. Why would God in human form tell us that if it is not true? Notice though that he said "if the human has faith that the human can move mountains", and not that if the human has faith, God will move a mountain. That is not said of any other species of God's creation, nor has it been demonstrated among any other species.

The fact is, God created us to be doers of what we believe. With few exceptions, God has not intervened in the schemes of man. We have progressed from dirt workers to the point where we actually put people in the vacuum of space and sustain them there for long periods of time. Interplanitary travel is not beyond the capability of man. We will eventually develop the technology that enables that kind of exploration.

God also made us to be able to choose by our own free will what we believe. So if we believe in God, we will do what God says we are to. Some of the finest Christians I know are rocket scientists striving to do what they believe God is leading them to do.

If we believe we are not worthy to be saved, we will stay away from those places where the Gospel is preached. Also if we believe that we are too good to be saved, we also shy away from those places as being beneath us. We inherently know that we must make a decision regarding Jesus, but we try to put off making that decision as long as we can, often too long.

Man cannot redeem himself, so God made the options from which we can choose to live our lives, and He encourages us to choose life, and tells us how. But he does not choose for us, or force us to choose Him. If he did, what reason is there for grace? Why is it God's will that none should perish? If he forced us or decided for us, He would simply save us all whether or not we wanted him to.

"The spirit is the life of the flesh. Though the wellbeing of the flesh may have some influence on spirit, a sick body does weigh heavily on the spirit, it remains the spirit that controls the flesh, else there could be no resisting of temptation. Everything that titilates the flesh would be carried out to the nth degree. However, even the most vile of persons can resist temptations to sin if he/she wants to exercise the free will given by God in the creation. If not true, then no one person could come to belief in God and thus receive the redemption that is already paid for by Jesus. Yet many have come to faith in Jesus by exercising their free will to believe."

 

Going back to the original post on this topic, Primative Baptist said,

NOR did Paul receive it one verse at a time as you are so eager to use it.

Considering this one verse is out of its context of Romans 1 through Romans 4 which addresses the issue of Justification, how would you like me to handle this? I can post the whole of the discussion so that perhaps you can see that if you base your doctrine of total depravity on this verse, the result is false doctrine.

 

Jesus refutes the Calvinist doctrine of "the elect".

Guess what? Jesus was lifted up, not only on the cross, but lifted up from the earth! And since that time all men know about, and can elect to believe or not believe all by themselves, for Jesus does in fact draw ALL men to himself. Everyone must make their own choice regarding Jesus.

 

Jesus said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." If the natural man has the ability to come to Christ according to "free will," Jesus' words are rendered meaningless. Jesus said, "No man can..." Can denotes ability, something Jesus said that he does not possess.[/quote]WRONG! "Can" is not limited to ability, it also denotes permission and authority. For example, 'Though the door is open, You cannot enter'. Not that you do not have the ability to enter, but because I do not grant you permission to enter! If you do, there are consequences you must face!

However, this passage deals with the DRAW! It is strange that you would pick up on this passage which is contained in the Holy Word of God, the instrument of God speaking to man, and use it to exclude any that you think do not qualify. Any who can read the Holy Scriptures simplest parts are encouraged by God's Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that illuminates scripture to the reader. It is the Holy Spirit that "draws" one to understanding.

Those who refuse to read the Holy Scriptures are not drawn to the author! Therefore Jesus words are true. If you do not hear the call made in the scriptures, you cannot be drawn.

It is you who insists on using the Scriptures to bash others keeping them away from being drawn, instead of freely giving them the scriptures upon which to decide for themselves. Think about your yourself, how did you come to make a decision for Christ? It was not because of John Calvin, I can assure you of that! John Calvin's body remains in its grave! You did not have the slightest allegiance to Calvin until someone told you that Calvin "may be right" and you did some study to reinforce that declaration. John Calvin cannot save you, neither can his writings! For that matter Armenius cannot save you either! So knock of the stinkin' thinkin' and read Jesus! He's alive and his grave is empty.

 

Prove that I have taken Roamns 3:20 out of context. Your assertion that I have, considering that you don't actually address Romans 3:20, is irelevant.

 

"Latreia, You make some very broad brush statements that you have failed to support with or without scripture."

This is manifestly false. I supported what I said with allusions to Scripture. Was I general? Sure. By necessity since yo offered only a vague philosophy with proferred basis in Scriptrure.

"The fact is, Latreia, if you do not understand the human that God created you to be, you are not going to understand God."

This is nothing more than you protesttin that you don't have to address the point of the analogy. Sorry. I want responses, not excuses not to respond. I particularly don't want to read philosophy instead of Scriptural arguments.

In fact your whole post that begins with the above quote is just that. A philosophy. You don't adress scripture at all. Til you do you're worth responding to.

BTW, Joghn 12 is something Calvanists embrace, believing as they do ina general call. If you actually knew anythig about Calvanism (and the whhole debate, beyond the vain human philosophy you espouse) you'd not say what you do. Unfortunately this verse taken the way you want to take it, if done consitently, leads to universalism. So if it teaches what you wish, then it teaches too much, for Jesus is clear that universalism is false.

Again, if you're a universalist, say so plainly. Otherwise don't make arguments that support universalism, but not your position (without being logically inconsitent).

So then, until you actualy deal with the Scriptures given I will consider you a troll.

BTW are you aware fo Calvansitic Wesleyanism?

I'm guessing not.

 

Paul wrote in

I do not dispute what Paul says, and infact expound upon it.

The natural man can be persuaded by the Holy Scriptures if he is drawn to read them, for the Holy Spirit encourages those who seek, and illuminates the truth to the seeker. Once one "hears" the truth in his "natural man spirit", one must make a decision, then another, and another, until the one comes to meet Jesus. It is then that even the natural man can, that is, has the authority and ability, and must by an act of his own free will, choose whether to believe in the Christ and thus have eternal life with a redeemed 'Christian' spirit, or to reject the Christ and return to being just a natural man. Yes, the natural man does have a spirit, God created all men as spirits so that we are ALL made in God's image. Even Lucifer, the beautiful angel, was spirit in God's image until he, Lucifer chose by his own free will, to try to usurp God's throne or to be equal with God. Now he is leader of the natural man. Even so, defections from Satan's gang are happening all the time for those who are not totally depraved and who Hear the Word of God!

[ December 28, 2002, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

I'm sorry is that supposed to addrss the issue?

More philosophy.

Don't feed the Trolls.

 

Jesus is universal, so I guess that I am a universalist since I am sold out completely to Jesus!

I don't have time for Calvin or Wesley or Luther, or ????, who are all mere mortals struggling with scriptures as we all do!

Neither do I have time or patience with cheap labels, or those who insist on tacking them on others! They are a sure sign of spiritual immaturity!

 

This is the Context from which you pulled and concentrated your efforts on one verse to prove your point.
ROMANS:
SALVATION BY FAITH
I: JUSTIFICATION
A: THE RETRIBUTION OF GOD AGAINST GENTILE AND JEW
Romans 1:16,17 The theme stated

</font>[/QUOTE]Romans 1: 18-32 The retribution of God against gentile and jew
Romans 2:1-11 The Jews are not exempt from the retribution of God
Romans 2:12-25 The Law will not save them
Romans 2:26-29 Circumcision will not save them
Romans 3:1-8 God's promises will not save them
Romans 3:9-20 All are guilty (it doesn't say that all are totally depraved)

Now we are well aware that whatever the Law says is said for those who are subject to the Law, so that every mouth may be silenced, and the whole world brought under the judgement of God. So then, no human being can be found upright at the tribunal of God by keeping the Law; all that the Law does is to tell us what is sinful.</font>[/QUOTE]B: FAITH AND THE JUDGEMENT OF GOD
Romans 3:21-26 The revelation of God's judgement
Romans 3:27-31 What faith does
C: THE EXAMPLE OF ABRAHAM
Romans 4:1-25 Abraham justified by faith
II. SALVATION
Romans 5: Faith guarantees salvation

 

Because of the fall,man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel.The sinner is dead,blind,and deaf to the things of God;his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt.His will is not free,it is in bondage to his evil nature,therefore,he will not,indeed he cannot choose good over evil in the spiritual realm.Consequently,it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ,it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature.Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation,it is God's gift to the sinner,not the sinner's gift to God. Rom.5:12,Ps.51:1-5,Jer.13:23,1Cor.2:14,Jn.6:44.

 

Yelsew,

So you attempt to justify your ignorance of what you critique? That's sad.

Thank you for providing the context of Roamsn 3:20. Nowhere do you show how I have actually taken anything out of context. Bot surprising, since I didn't take anyting out of context. Not like you did with 1Corinthians!

 

Brutus said,

Are we or are we not endowed by our creator with the same attributes, that which is true of man, as man had before the Fall?

Isn't it true of man after the fall, that man is no longer holy, regardless of which sin or combinations of sin are identified, and can no longer walk with God as did Adam before sin?

Isn't it true that Jesus, the Second Adam (first of type, first born of God) and our Savior, came from the Father, taking on the form of man, in order to be the Sacrificial lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the World?

Isn't it true that we are not denied the ability to choose? Even the most vile of sinners chooses.

Isn't it true that our choices are based on the knowledge we possess? We cannot choose that for which we have no knowledge, (except in political elections. )

Isn't it true that we get our knowledge of God from the Holy Scriptures?

Do the Holy Scriptures tell us in even the vaguest terms that we have the right or ability to save ourselves?

Are we not told in scriptures to "choose life"?

If we cannot save ourselves, do we not have the ability to allow, that is, prepare ourselves to be saved by God? (includes, confession of sin, confession of who Jesus is, and repentance from sin, and working out (not for) our salvation)

Do we not exercise our free will in preparing ourselves for salvation? Do we not exercise our free will to declare, as Peter another mere mortal, did that Jesus is the Son of God, the Christ?

Do we not by exercising our free will, confess our sins and repent from them?

Do we not by exercising our free will, deliberately attempt to live in holiness abiding until Jesus' return?

Does God force salvation upon us? Or, does He leave it up to us to choose Him based on our knowledge of Him?

Hasn't God already provided us with the knowledge of himself necessary for our belief?

There are many more questions, but this will do for now.

 

No Latreia,
I simply illustrated where you are wrong!

 

Where?

Nothing you posted contradicts what I said or my representation of Romans.

Your assertions are getting emptier each time you post.

Trolls. Don't feed 'em.

 

Post edited for unnecessary reference to someone else's mental abilities. Please keep your posts on the subject, not on your opponent.

[ December 28, 2002, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

To whom do we look if we would be saved?Does it lie within us to do what is necessary?Can we honestly direct men to look to themselves for that which God requires of them?The Bible throughout,argues and declares this good news:"God saves sinners"!(Jonah 2:9)Now be careful!That little statement is fuller than you might recognize at first.The implications are immense.Of course,God saves sinners.We're all sinners,and God is good enough to allow us into Heaven anyway! We must try to honor Him,make a good attempt at living a decent life,and of course believe in Him,and He saves us!This is exactly how many people talk.But this is not at all what the Bible means when it declares that "God saves sinners"It is not at all that we do something which He then ratifies.God saves sinners.He does it,and He does it all by himself.It is His doing from beginning to end(Phil.1:6).And it is sinners He saves,not those who have been "good enough"or those whose will is "free"and good enough to first make right choices(Phil.2:13).God saves sinners,He rescues those who cannot rescue themselves.This is the message of the Gospel.So if you are a true Christian,one who is trusting Christ for salvation,you have God to thank for it.Not yourself.He "began this good work in you"(Phil.1:6) Why is it that man feels that he must have a hand in his salvation? Man wants to add more of "us" to the equation and less and less of "God".Yes, the Bible clearly teaches that man is totally depraved.Now by that I do not mean that every man or woman is as bad as he or she can possibly be.No,I mean that by ourselves we all are as bad off as we can possibly be.That is,we all have sinned(Rom.3:23),and by our sin we deserve the punishment of God against sin,which is condemnation(Rom.6:23).Moreover,sin has so affected us that,left to ourselves,we will always continue on sinning and never look to God for salvation(Jn.3:19-20;Jn.6:44;Rom.3:11)Clearly,if a man is a sinner deserving of condemnation and will never "seek God"and His mercy,then he is obviously as bad off as he can possibly be.Left to himself he will continue on his way to Hell.This is what is meant by"total depravity".