Total Depravity

"Total depravity, if it exists, acknowledges nothing, men do."

There goes another one creating a TD to his liking, saying what it should be. The reast of that just proceeds from what you think TD should mean, ignoring what it actually does mean.

Yelsew, you must really like monologues. You must really like hearing yourself talk because you are not really listening to anyone else.

"You can choose absolutely anything within the constraints of the creation...even life!. To be able to choose "absolutely anything" one would have to be divine spirit! Even Satan, the father of lies is constrained, he cannot create, and he cannot choose life!"

This is patently false. Choose to be 8 feet tall if you like. it will not actually happen.

"False boasts were expected from you. You prematurely announce my demise, unless you are quitting but can't find your way out of the ring!"

LOL. I am still waiting for you to actually address TD. You have not done so.

Listen, you don't get to define TD for yourself. You actually have to learn what it is, and then address that. You haven't done that.

That being the case, I am, as per my metaphor, still wating for you to enter the ring.

"Please point out specifically what it is about TD that you think I am failing to address? It seems to me that you are the one who is not addressing TD. You are too fond of accusing me to post any intelligent discussion points."

I did just that in pointing out your error about TD teaching about Free will. You then proceeded to effectively say that TD shouldn't actually teach that.

You ask the question but you don't accept the answer. You are too fond of your own ignorance to actually have an intelligent discussion onthis topic it seems.

I am still in ring, waiting...

 

npetreley posted these two definitions of Total Depravity

If this is the total depravity that you think I haven't addressed, then you simply cannot read!

Do you have another definition of Total Depravity?

 

Yelsew,

Those definitions are fair.

However you have not addressed them.

Have you responded to them?

Yes.

Have you addressed them?

No.

To make a response is not the same thing as addressing. Addressing necesarily involves making comments that are draw from and relate to to what is being reposnded to. You don't actually do that. Take a look:

"Is the premise of "total depravity" true? NO! Man can still hear and respond to God in an act of man's own free will!"

Does that refute TD? NO! For TD does not deny that Man still experiences ongoing revelation fom God (in nature) and respomds to it. What TD holds is that man always reposnds the wrong way.

If you actually were responding to the definitions you cite, you'd know that. Just re-read them and you'll get that out of them.

So you don't address the isues. You just read and then go off on your own little tangent every time. That is not reposnding to what we say.

I again offer to discuss TD with you. But I again repeat that ou will have to discuss TD, and not **your** ideas of free will.

 

God is not biased or partial in any way ever as to nationality or individuals. [Galatians 2:6-d-] [Acts 10:34-b-] In the Galatians 2:6 passage the Greek word for 'person' is {prosopon} suggesting the idea of 'countenance, appearance, presence, or visage. The Divine attribute of His justice, eternally forbids personal bias and prejudice toward any human being. A study of His justice will confirm this truth. [Isaiah 45:21-i-] That is why any alleged,arbitrary selection of His elect would be a violation of His will and eternal plan toward humankind.

 

The Fall made man a sinner thus separating him from Holy God. The Sin separates us, but at the same time creates in us a void that cannot be filled by anything sinful. The fall did not make man stupid, lacking in intelligence or idiotic, or incapable. It took away the former condition of human holiness, but none of the God Given attributes.

Does this not contradict the concept that God instills in all of us a "longing" for our creator? That we sense that something is amiss and search for what will fill a void within us?

This says that evil is more powerful than good! I do not believe that evil is the stronger draw.

Assuming that "sinner" means one who is totally depraved, and not merely one who sins. Man under his own power will succomb to sin sooner than he will turn to righteousness. Sinning has instantaneous rewards, where righteousness is work. Man that is "totally depraved" has no experience with anything but depravity so what is he to turn to? So, in this scenario, when does regeneration take place? Is it before man comes under conviction of the Holy Spirit hears the word and believes or does regeneration take place when man is willing to be regenerated after hearing and believing?

If one is totally depraved, how does the Holy Spirit who is Holy, interface with the one who has no holiness? Holy and unholy cannot coexist any more than light and dark can!

Unless you know that both good and evil exist, you cannot know of your own condition. Adam and Eve did not know of good and evil before they ate of the fruit of the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. Therefore when expelled from the Garden, they had full knowledge, a knowledge that you and I have as part of the human family. They were not totally depraved, They were not beyond seeking forgiveness under their own power. They were provided for and nurtured by God for survival outside the Garden, but they were not "blanked out", made stupid, or devoid of knowledge or their God given attributes.

Faith is the only thing that man can contribute to his salvation.

If you are referring to Ephesians 2:8,9, then you are reading the scripture incorrectly. "For by Grace are ye saved through faith (Grace enables Faith), and not of yourselves (No inate power to cause or bring about), it (salvation) is a gift of God, Not of works (can't be earned), lest any man should boast (if man could get salvation in any other way but through faith, the man would have something to boast about)."

[ January 02, 2003, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

Brutus,

Thanks for the message. I have never read James Hunt's book but will purchase it and take a look for myself. I only read his statement about Augustine and Calvin while at Hackman's Bible Bookstore in Allentown, Pennsylvania. I do agree with him that Augustinian deterministic beliefs came out first during his life span of 354-430. Calvinism came out of the era of Reformation theology but can be traced back to the Roman Catholoic theologian, St. Augustine.

Before I glimpsed at his book I came to the same conclusion after researching this one idea and aspect for my doctoral dissertation. My work went before and was examined by a Doctoral Committee and was titled, "Quasi-Augustinian Theology."

 

romanbear,

You are correct and within Scriptural parimeters. If Total Depravity were true a human being would never be able to recover spiritually from the depths of his lost estate. This is where the call of the Holy Spirit convicts and convinces the sinner and the effaced 'image of God' in humankind [James 3:9] points to Jesus as the Savior of the lost. [I John 2:2] If the Holy Spirit was not at work and if the 'image of God' [James 3:9] in a man or woman was totally obliterated, the the first point of Calvinism would be a Biblical doctrine.

 

Unfortunaely that means you shold not be an Arminian as only those who have that certain je ne sais quoi that gets them to believe, and not others, get saved, and thus in arminian th9ught God IS a respecter of persons.

 

It is true that man has no salvific powers. There is nothing He can do to redeem himself. He is not, however, unable to hear the word and believe. For belief is what brings salvation, it changes the persuasion, it changes the outlook, it changes the attitude and therefore the acceptability of the one in God's eyes. Salvation comes through belief (faith). Can a man change his state of faith? Absolutely, man is the only one who can change his faith from unbelief to belief. It's not that God is powerless in the matter, but God for his own sovereign reasons elects to allow man to make the choice, with one notable exception, Saul who became Paul.

This example is not appropriate to salvation! Salvation is a matter of spiritual rebirth, and not a matter of physical resurrection. Lazarus was brought back to life in the natural realm by the author of life causing Lazarus' spirit to reenter the flesh (the spirit is the life of the flesh). Lazarus was most assuredly a believer before he died, for Jesus loved him greatly and wept openly at the gravesite. How many more examples do we have such as this? That's right, you can count them using the fingers of one hand! Now, how many men have received salvation? How is it possible to count them? They were all saved by the same means, BELIEF (Faith in God). Having no faith, they were not, and could not be saved. YES, man does play a significant part in his own salvation, for without belief in God (Jesus), there is no salvation, for there is no salvation in any other name under heaven.

Total Depravity completely ignores man's ability to be persuaded in his spirit! It completely ignores the powers that God did instill in his created man. It assumes that in the fall man lost those powers, and therefore there is nothing left to redeem. However, God saw it a different way! Thank you Father.

Now Latreia, I have addressed both of those "fair definitions" of total depravity. Do you care to address them or my "responses" to them?

 

What is this 'persuasion'? Are you referring to a good preacher? Or are you speaking of the Holy Spirit?

 

"It is true that man has no salvific powers. There is nothing He can do to redeem himself."

Exactly

"He is not, however, unable to hear the word and believe."

Yes he is. He cannot as per Romans 1 which tells us that no one fails to distort the truth revelaed to them so that tehy always fail to acknowledge God as God.

"For belief is what brings salvation, it changes the persuasion, it changes the outlook, it changes the attitude and therefore the acceptability of the one in God's eyes."

No. I agree that we are saved by faith. But faith does not save. Only the work of Christ saves. Your presentation here actually is the oppsosite of Romans 4:5.

"Salvation comes through belief (faith)."

Yes. But not because of faith. There is no causality involved. And faith is a gift from God. it is not something we generate from ourselves.

Can a man change his state of faith? Absolutely, man is the only one who can change his faith from unbelief to belief."

No. This is false.

"It's not that God is powerless in the matter, but God for his own sovereign reasons elects to allow man to make the choice, with one notable exception, Saul who became Paul."

Actually there are more than that. All thse who follow Christ are elect, but at Go's choice, not man's. And as soon as yo admit one exception, especially one as notable as Paul, there is no way to really maintain your position consistently.

"Total Depravity completely ignores man's ability to be persuaded in his spirit!"

Not it doesn't. But it does deny that the persuasion come from anyone but God.

"It completely ignores the powers that God did instill in his created man."

No, but it acknowledges the effects fo the Fall.

"It assumes that in the fall man lost those powers, and therefore there is nothing left to redeem."

No, it does not. It simply allows that the use of those powers is conditioned, and to a far greater degree than you allow for. And gioven that we have posted Scripture and you have not, it seems you are the one assuming and rreading in the assumption into Scripture.

"However, God saw it a different way! Thank you Father."

I at least will quote Scripture here: "Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" 2Co. 9:15

 

Latreia, I presume that you are using this particular passage to support your ill conceived "Total Depravity". Rom 1:18-32

How is this possible under total depravity? Everything that man can know about God is available to "Totally depraved" man? Yet as those previous "fair definitions" clearly state, man is not capable of knowing or understanding. In this scripture Paul tells the Romans, who were by this time accepting Homosexuality as "normal" in their society, that man's whole essence from the first created man has not changed, or been altered, therefore we must still possess all that God created in us, except the pre-fall holiness which our sin destroyed.

So, Faith does not save?

"Abraham put his own faith in God" Paul tells us that a "totally depraved" man did something that was looked on by God as being righteousness (holiness if you will).

How is it there can be even one who's "offenses are forgiven, if Total Depravity" exists? How is it one can "put their faith in God and thus be counted as righteous"? What else is there?

I said that Jesus is the one who actually does the saving, but that God does not save the unwilling.

Then you do not believe that faith comes from hearing, but rather it is something that God imputes to man, and only those men that He chooses to save? So in essence you are telling us that Jesus was wrong when he said that Whosoever believeth or Whosoever will, or all that believe...etc. Saving faith is not possible to man, it can only be given as a gift from God? Well, I suppose you are right considering all that exists comes from God. But I don't believe God had faith to give to man. In what or whom would God place his faith? Is there any higher, or more mighty than God himself, that God would place faith in?

If we are created in the image of God, and you think that God has faith, then it is natural for you to assume that God gave us faith when he created us, like he gave us love, mercy, justice and grace. I don't recall any description of man stating that we have "faith" because we are created in the image of God and that faith is one of God's attributes. Faithful? Absolutely, God is faithful to all that God is. Why then do we not hear theologeons declaring that God is Faith?

You may be able to quote scripture, but you certainly have little understanding of its content.
What specifically is Paul saying to the Corinthians in this verse? What is the indescribable gift?

[ January 03, 2003, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

"How is this possible under total depravity?"

First, let me congratulate you on a very reasonable question. Allow me to address it. You have clearly misunderstood the definitions if you think that TD means that man cannot know or understand God. TD means that man did not react correctly to the revelation he has. That is what Paul goes on to say in v. 21. Asa esult he now has a repriobate (or worthless) mind (v.28). (What translation is that anyway?)

""Abraham put his own faith in God" Paul tells us that a "totally depraved" man did something that was looked on by God as being righteousness (holiness if you will)"

Your translation is messing you up a bit. A better translation is "Abraham believed God.." The bit about his own gives the impression that thiwas something he worked up in himself.

Let me say two things. 1) yo are here trying to get a passage wherein Paul is addressing justification to address something else (election). That's not appropriate. 2) You assume that Abraham's faith came from himself. Elsewhere faith is described as a gift, and in Romans 9 such chosing of Abraham is placed in the copntext of God's election , leading to the conclusion that the faith was God's gift.

"How is it there can be even one who's "offenses are forgiven, if Total Depravity" exists? How is it one can "put their faith in God and thus be counted as righteous"? What else is there?"

Offenses HAVE to be forgiven becuase TD exists. Otherwise the debt could be worked off. Not that people want to do that. Again the question is where does hte faith come from? God grants it. God calls.

"Then you do not believe that faith comes from hearing, but rather it is something that God imputes to man, and only those men that He chooses to save?"

"faith coes by hearing" is not a law. It is a staement of HOW faith comes. By hearing the message of Christ. it is he means God uses to call a person to faith.

"But I don't believe God had faith to give to man."

But He did have to. Corpses can't come back to life on their own. That's what being dead in sins is about. Slaves can't will their freedom. They have to be given freedom. That's what redemption is about. Give those passsages their full weight.

"In what or whom would God place his faith? Is there any higher, or more mighty than God himself, that God would place faith in?"

Here you make no sense. I never sid God has faith.

"You may be able to quote scripture, but you certainly have little understanding of its content."

Drop the personal comments.

"What specifically is Paul saying to the Corinthians in this verse? What is the indescribable gift?"

The gift is His Son. , a giving of pure grace, by whom comes salvation to all those whom the father gives to the Son. not all those whoi give themselves to the Son.

 

Charlie T,

When speaking of the One who convict and convinces of sin I was referring to the Divine action of the Holy Spirit on the life of the sinner. [John 16:8] 'And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.'

The saving message of the Cross may come through tract, preacher or a personal witness to His truth. I am sure there are other venues that proclaim the Gospel.

 

Yelsew;What do you do with Romans 3:10-18? "There is none righteous,no,not one."There is none that understands,there is none that seeketh God."They have all gone out of the way,they have become unprofitable,there is none that doeth good,no,not one."Their throats are open sepulchre's their tongues are deceitful,the poison of asps is under their lips,their mouths are full of cursings,they are swift to shed blood,destruction and misery are their ways,peace they have not known,and there is no fear of God! And with all of the evidence before you, you will still maintain that total depravity is false doctrine?

 

I don't think I like the suggestion of burning a Bible under any circumstances, but PB< that was an excellent and concise presentation.

 

Primitive Baptist,

I know your aversion to reading excellent spiritual books. I respect you and your decision in this matter.

If you would take time to research "Total Depravity" back to its origin you will find that it was first postulated by St. Augustine, that quasi-Roman Catholic theologian. He lived between 354-430. John Calvin of the Reformation era some 1,070 years down the line in time called himself ' . . . an Augustinian theologian.' {Kenneth G.Talbot and W.Gary Crampton, "Calvinism,Hyper-Calvinism and Arminianism" Still Water Revival Books, 1990, page 79.

As you say, human beings are depraved but this fact cannot be held totally in isolation to prove a point. The 'image of God' in human beings is also a fact. [James 3:9] Another fact must be tossed into the mix. Almighty God 'lights every person coming into the world' [John 1:9] apart from regeneration. People have a conscience, intellect and your forbidden word, a free will to chose most things in life. Few Bible commentators offer up what they think this really means, that is, 'to light every person born into this world.' These two last verses are what makes "Total Depravity" an erroneous theological reality.

 

Brutus,
I include it in the first four chapters of Romans where Paul is setting the stage for the Roman believers. I do however include verse 9 and verses 19 & 20. He is using that which he determined from his experiences in Rome, to be the moral condition of the Roman society, and not the whole world in general. He is describing to the Roman believers what they must already know, but because they live in close proximity to the action, have become accustomed to it and as such has lost it's shock value for them. So Paul is reminding the Romans, a decadent society, of their decadence and what it does to their relationsip with God.

In 3:9-20 Paul is comparing the Romans to other societies that have behaved likewise.

and Rome most certainly was under the dominion of Sin, abhorent sexual behavior was accepted as normal. Then he continues to list the kinds of things the Jews and Greeks are guilty of, but not a "total depravity" lest there be no believers at all among them. But as you know, there were many among them, Corinth, Philippi, Ephesus, etc., who were believers and who were restored from their depravity. Others, who were wolves in sheeps clothing, were dealt with by the "community" for their sins.

For Total Depravity to be valid, either each and every individual must be totally depraved, or the society as a whole must be totally depraved, steeped deeply in sin. With the exception of Sodom and Gomorrah, we find very few references to other societies being "totally depraved". Therefore I think "total depravity", the way it is being presented as a doctrine, is invalid.

I agree that there are segments of society in which there is no morality, and there are individuals who are totally sold out to sin. But to establish a church doctrine based on total depravity is in gross error.

And Yes, I believe that pre-new birth man is enslaved by sin, an irresistable propensity to sin, but not a totally depraved individual as you would have me believe. Even the little white lie is sin, and you must agree that a little white lie is pretty innocuous compared to murder, sexual perversion, fraud, cheaters, etc. Total depravity means to me "master of depravity" and not casual sin.

God comes to the individual and presents him with a way to escape bondage, but God does not break the chains of the unwilling, only the willing (which are the states of the condition of human Free will).

 

Primitive Baptist said,

And free will is? Yep, that's right: "Thoughts, intents, and desires" coupled to the activity that satisfies them. All of which are of spirit and therefore in the spiritual realm.

For ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God. So sin governs mans lifestyle.

I know of no one who's salvation is the result of Grace. Everyone that I know who is saved is saved by faith. Grace is necessary to salvation in the same manner that a building is necessary to shelter one from a storm. Grace is the environment that allows one to come to faith. If God did not have Grace as an attribute of who he is, he would be compelled to use his Justice to rectify a situation that man caused by sinning. Thus there would be no living humanity, for the wages of sin is death. God's Grace toward us is what allows us to continue living after we sin. God does not want to kill us, he wants us to have eternal life with his only begotten son, therefore he is gracious enough to withhold his wrath until the judgment so that we can learn of him and seek him.

No, we would ALL be dead as in the days of Noah when God destroyed all but 8 human beings, for the wage paid for sin is death! But the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, believe it or not, it is your choice!