Shall we add that it is hard to find even that number of Calvinists who understand the Arminian position??
Redefinition of terms among Calvinists is almost as popular as Calvinists not agreeing among themselves and Calvinist claiming no Arminian understands Calvinism
Total Inability in the Gospel of John
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed, Feb 4, 2018.
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"Monergists believe that sinners cannot come to faith in Christ without the Holy Spirit doing an initial work.
Faith comes from hearing, and hearing from the word of Christ (Romans 10:17)."
All we got to do is focus right here. THE CALVINIST BLIND SPOT.
The "INITIAL WORK" is currently trapped in the [Edited: Name Calling] requirement of having heard the gospel.
100 MEN. 50 of them decide to listen to the gospel. 50 of them refuse. Remember only hearing the gospel can spark the "initial work".
The 50 who refuse from their will SYNERGIST are guaranteed to be damned there is no chance they get "initial work"
The 50 who decide to listen SYNERGIST have a chance to be elect as they have allowed the possibility of getting "initial work"
REFORMED, you can PROVE your position ABSOLUTELY easily.
Show us a Eskimo, a native indian, someone from far away land, who were filled with the holy spirit and before even ever hearing of Jesus or the gospel are full 5 point Calvinist.
Show us who is filled with the holy spirit having never heard of Jesus and has "INITIAL WORK".
The TIMING YOU HAVE is FLAWED. Do a step by step time line and present it......and we will show you how horribly wrong it is.
1. A total depraved DECIDES BY HIMSELF to hear the gospel.
Or do we tie them up or hold them at gunpoint?
2. AFTER hearing the gospel THEN HE might be regenerated by GOD
ACTS 2
38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Backwards backwards bacwards.
Repent, Baptize get sins forgiven, Receive the holy spirit.
You want it it BACKWARDS with holy spirit first.
Look at how preachers are filled with the holy spirit to speak to non-believers. Having to fill a preacher with a holy spirit would be a waste since only the guys hearing would require the spirit.
We can even change to the perspective of saying Calvinist believe salvation BY WORKS ABSOLUTELY.
"The WORK of cooperating and listening to the GOSPEL" -
A Calvinist believes UNLESS you do the GOOD WORK of Listening to the Gospel.
You will be damned and you will never be regenerated.
Thats right "WORKS ALONE".
Challenge that. -
But there is more to what they are claiming.
"The work" that they claim the Holy spirit has to do before you "can" believe is to make you a born again Christian... then when you wake up one morning and find out that you are already a born again Christian ... well then as a Christian -- you choose to have faith.
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Contrast that with the more basic idea "the Holy Spirit doing an initial work" like for example "convicting the World of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 -- which He does for all mankind. Drawing all mankind to Christ John 12:32.
"I STAND at the door and knock - if anyone hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3 -
I get a kick out of the amateur Greek scholars who would not know a trema from a diphthong.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
Blessings,
The Archangel -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
Second, I whole-heartedly agree that God loved the world as John 3:16 says. There are issues with most translations of the verse because they kowtow to the KJV which translated the verse very poorly. God demonstrates His love for the world by sending Christ. What you are wrongly assuming is that the world means "all without exception." In fact, God loving the world and sending Christ to it demonstrates His love not only for people, but also the creation. Remember: Paul tells us "all creation is groaning under the curse." So, it is not only for people that Christ came.
Third, your arguments in this post alone demonstrate you don't understand the idea of context. Instead you are trying to force your a priori understanding(s) of words (some of which are hopelessly flawed to begin with) into a particular context (see the "first" and "second" points directly above) without any regard for the author's use of a word. Furthermore, you seem to want the text to mean things in certain places it simply cannot mean by clear rules of lexical function and grammar.
Blessings,
The Archangel -
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No such thing as a Greek Calvinist.
other then maybe a Greek guy who doesn't know Greek.
Cause you can't trickem to believe wrong meanings to Greek words.
You would think Greece is just chock-full of Calvinist huh?
I bet they are Greek-Orthodox Catholics. -
Judge
κρίνω,v \{kree'-no}
1) to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose 2) to approve, esteem, to prefer 3) to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion 4) to determine, resolve, decree 5) to judge 5a) to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong 5a1) to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it 5b) to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure 5b1) of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others 6) to rule, govern 6a) to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment 7) to contend together, of warriors and combatants 7a) to dispute 7b) in a forensic sense 7b1) to go to law, have suit at law
Verse 46
This is saying that these Jews determined themselves to be "unworthy of eternal life' because they "put it from them". Howbeit, it was THEY who sealed "determined" their own "judgement" by willfully refusing the Gospel.
Verse 48
By contrast, the "Gentiles" in verse 48 "determined themselves" to be "worthy" because they "received the word of the Lord gladly". And the word "ordained", here, can simply means "ordered" or "disposed to" something. Not only that, bu the Greek word "τεταγμένοι" can also be used in the "middle voice". Sir, God is not mentioned in the verse as "ordaining" anyone. The ones who "gladly received" were simply individuals who wanted to live forever. Many lost people DO want to live forever you know. -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
First, by this point in linguistic history Greek greatly prefers the passive to the middle and most had begun to drop the middle, opting instead for the reflexive pronoun (like that of v. 46). Second, because this verb is perfect, the middle simply will not work conceptually. Technically the phrase in question is pluperfect periphrastic. The perfect tense in Greek refers to something that has happened in the past that has lasting effect into the present. The pluperfect changes that slightly and give the meaning of an action (appointing) preceding another action (believing). The second action is, for lack of a better term, contingent of the first. Why did the gentiles believe in the here and now? Because in the past they were ordained to eternal life.
For your understanding of this passage to be correct, the perfect cannot be used, which it simply is. For the middle voice to be understood, since the verb is perfect tense, you'd have to argue that these gentiles went back in time and ordained themselves to eternal life in the past so that they would now--in the present--believe, which is simply nonsense. Because the passive has to be understood here, it is understood to be a divine passive. Who else could "appoint" anyone for eternal life (in the past)? Can someone go back in time and appoint themselves? Of course not. Again, to argue for that is simply nonsense.
Unfortunately, your lack of facility in the Greek has led you to these errant conclusions. This passage is simply never going to mean what you wish it to mean and you should stop kicking against the goads here. One does not achieve facility in Greek by consulting Strongs and using a parsing tool. You actually have to roll up your sleeves and get into the mess in order to understand the language with its nuance and see how it works and, more importantly, why it works the way it does. Certainly study tools are helpful, but study tools do not convey facility or competence upon you.
The Archangel -
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The Archangel Well-Known Member
In my Seminary Greek class, we translated Revelation (Chapter 1 through the end of the letters to the seven churches). That, in itself, was quite informative. Even so, John's Greek is much more simple than the other writers, especially Paul. It is interesting to see how certain authors have their own style as it shows-up in the Greek. Sometimes the English translations do not always convey that style.
Ephesians 2 was a passage I had to diagram and write a paper on for a preaching class. The diagram had to be done in Greek and the paper had to, essentially, explain what was going on. So, that's why I said I'd combine your point a and point b. It is usually what I do when I'm trying to get deep into a passage. And, because I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I am always trying to confirm my work with other sources. In the case we are discussing here, there is some pretty good corroborating stuff written by some fairly important big-wigs.
Blessings,
The Archangel -
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But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 1 Corinthians 1:27 -
The Archangel Well-Known Member
No one said you have to know Greek to be saved. No one that I know of says you have to know Greek to have a deep relationship with or appreciation for God. Our translations are, indeed, sufficient.
I do appreciate the KJV, and it is a good translation in most places. Today, however, there are much better translations. As I used KJV for many, if not most, of my formative years, it holds a special place in my heart and many of the verses I memorized as a child are still in my head in the KJV.
In the end, as far as Christ's work of salvation is concerned, I would argue that Christ actually accomplishes the salvation of the elect rather than merely making salvation (for all or some, it does not matter) possible.
Blessings,
The Archangel
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