Total Inability in the Gospel of John

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed, Feb 4, 2018.

  1. Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    All other things being equal, do you consider someone learned in Greek better qualified to preach, teach, or pastor?
     
  2. thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    You are asking if the ability to better understand the original intent of the Author makes one a better conveyor of it. I ask you, how on Earth does it not?
     
  3. TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    All things being equal? Yes.
     
  4. Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    Of course, this presupposes that the only way to understand the original intent of the “Author” [I assume the capitalization indicates you mean the Holy Spirit rather than the human authors. I apologize if that is not the case.] is to learn Greek. I, personally, do not hold to that position. I do not believe the original intent is hidden or at all difficult to comprehend.
     
  5. Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    I do not disagree. I believe anything we can do to better equip ourselves to rightly divide the word of truth makes us more effective in our preaching and teaching. This would include gaining a working knowledge of biblical languages; but, as has been stated above, certainly not the end.
     
  6. Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Bob, I do not believe that not knowing the original languages disqualifies a man from the pastorate. There is more to being an under-shepherd than preaching, although preaching is one of the main functions. However, not having a working knowledge of the original languages limits a pastor. He is forced to rely on the exegetical conclusions of others instead of proving those conclusions correct and in the process appropriating those truths into his soul. Without knowing the original languages a pastor will need to have a more expansive reading list. After all, someone else has done the translation work and no two exegetes are the same. Can a pastor thrive in his ministry while not knowing the original languages? Yes. But he will (and should!) spend more time in research and preparation when working with the text. Can a more intimate knowledge of the original languages provide him insight and appreciation than his counterpart who does not have an intimate knowledge lacks? I think the answer to that question is also "yes".
     
  7. thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    You didn't ask the question framed that way, and I didn't answer it that way. No one said that knowledge of Greek was the "only way" to understand the texts.


    Here's what you asked: "All other things being equal, do you consider someone learned in Greek better qualified to preach, teach, or pastor?"

    The answer remains: That goes without saying!
     
  8. Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    That’s fair enough. In your opinion, what are some acceptable ways, independent of learning Greek, for one to “better understand the original intent of the Author”?
     
  9. thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    I'm afraid that this will not go over well here, but you asked. . .

    Even more vital to understanding the Bible than a good working knowledge of the original languages, understanding the covenantal framework of how God works with mankind is far, far more important, IF one already has access to good English translations (assuming we are talking about the US) and a few solid commentaries to help with historical context and some other details that scholars are good at pointing out.

    Covenant Theology provides the big-picture necessary to understand the smaller parts. Without it, the Bible lacks cohesion. With it, it flows and the Redemptive Narrative becomes clear.

    If CT is too much for a Dispensationalist to bear, then I would say Biblical Theology is the most important tool in understanding the content of the Bible. Biblical Theology gives a big-picture grid that Systematic Theology then can rest upon.

    The Bible is about Jesus. He said as much, so if our system, or lack of one, does not help us see it that way, all of the Greek and Hebrew study in the world won't be of any value in understanding what the Holy Author had intended by His words.
     
  10. SheepWhisperer Active Member

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    First and foremost: know the Author

    ....... the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 1 John 2:27
     
  11. thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    That text was directed to the Apostles, otherwise we have Jesus and the Spirit appointing and equipping teachers for no apparent reason.
     
  12. utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "We (all-inclusive) have no idea who is elect and who isn't. I would have no way of knowing whether or not God had chosen you or not."

    1 John 3

    10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

    Maybe not obvious to some folks.


    "It isn't that we're "taught" we deserve hell; the Bible is quite clear that we do--All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; we are condemned already; etc."

    Being in hell is actively sinning against God, Your saying you deserve to do God wrong.

    We can SCRIBBLE IN bible that "all mankind matter fact goes to hell" that still would not equate to the divine judgment that you "DESERVE" to go to hell.

    You are jumping the gun on a judgement call only God can make, It doesn't matter how many times you let the air out of God's tires.


    παρρησιασάμενοί δὲ ὁ Παῦλος καὶ ὁ Βαρναβᾶς εἶπον, Ὑμῖν ἦν ἀναγκαῖον πρῶτον λαληθῆναι τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ· ἐπειδὴ δὲ ἀπωθεῖσθε αὐτὸν καὶ οὐκ ἀξίους κρίνετε ἑαυτοὺς τῆς αἰωνίου ζωῆς ἰδού, στρεφόμεθα εἰς τὰ ἔθνη



    Μὴ κρίνετε, ἵνα μὴ κριθῆτε·

    1“Do not judge so that you will not be judged


    Somebody should have given Jesus the memo about already existing conditions.


    You have no right to judge any deserving hell.


    Acts 10

    28And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean.
     
  13. Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    What authors do you consider to be adept at conveying a proper understanding of this covenantal framework?
     
  14. Reformed Well-Known Member
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  15. Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your input. I can already see that I would have majors areas of disagreement just by reading the FAQs. But, I find it interesting and helpful to understand what others believe even when we disagree so that I might disagree intelligently.
     
  16. Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Bob,

    Still some good reads on that list even if you are a Dispensationalist. Studying the covenants yields significant perspective imho.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
     
  17. thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    I would agree. The main thing I would stress, which I was lacking for decades and I think that Evangelical church lacks, is a big-picture view of the Bible. We tend to read the Bible like reference book or an owner's manual, but it is a novel!

    It is, in a sense, the greatest love story ever told, but when read and studied topically, the drama is missed completely, and we bore ourselves and others (if we preach or teach) that way.
     
  18. thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Reformed beat me to it.

    One could have some understanding of covenant theology yet remain a dispensationalist. See my reply to him (Reformed) for my further opinion.