Trail of (Irish?) Blood

Only an opinion, no proof. That far back ALL Irish history blurs with reality. He was not Roman Catholic, that is certain. Baptism? We just don't really know. We do know that the churches of his time, and he was the first Christian influence here, had baby baptismal fonts (I have seen several 5-6th century type fonts).

Sounds good, preaches good. Just not enough real evidence to call him a Baptist. Born again Christian? Almost certainly. Baptistic in his beliefs? Maybe.

I am a Baptist, living in Ireland for a little over nine years now.

 

Is it just me, or does Mr. Jarrel not provide a citation for any of his many quotations? Yeah, I'm going to believe that...

This is from the same site, written by an author of a rhyming name, Mr. Ferrell.

"We claim as Bible believing Baptists that Jesus Christ started the First Baptist Church."

Yes, the capitalization of "First" is theirs, not added by me.

 

What's next the Pope is Baptist! Some of this stuff is just so ludicrous that it is laughable. It becomes truly sad though when some people actually start believing this sort of bunk. Baptists in the 5th century thats a hoot. And they want to say Catholics believe in fables.

 

The thread was not actually that laughable. Patrick was not Roman Catholic. The Irish church developed separately until the 12th century when Pope Hadrian commissioned Henry (II?) to invade Ireland from England and establish the Roman version of the church there.

Patrick was probably not Baptist, but neither was he Roman Catholic,

 

Quote: "Patrick was probably not Baptist, but neither was he Roman Catholic,"
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Let's see: This taken from: The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001.:
1. "He belonged to a Christian family of Roman citizenship."

2.) In 431, St. Palladius, first missionary bishop sent to Ireland, died; Patrick was consecrated (432) in his place by St. Germanus of Auxerre. 3

3.) Of St. Germanus we know: from the same source: "Gaulish churchman, bishop of Auxerre (after c.418). St. Patrick was under his tutelage for 12 years. Popes Celestine I and Leo I sent him to England (429, 447) to combat Pelagianism; on the first occasion he was accompanied by the deacon Palladius, first recorded missionary to Ireland.

4.)In 444 or 445, with the approval of Pope St. Leo I, Patrick established his archiepiscopal see at Armagh. St. Patrick’s mission was successful; Ireland was almost entirely Christian by the time of his death. He understood and wisely preserved the social structure of the country, converting the people tribe by tribe. Out of his hierarchy, organized by tribal units, developed the Celtic abbot-bishop system. At Patrick’s instance, the traditional laws of Ireland were codified. Patrick modified them to harmonize with Christian practice, and he mitigated the harsher ones, particularly those that dealt with slaves and taxation of the poor. He introduced the Roman alphabet.

So we have him raised by a Roman Christian family.
Commissioned and sent under the tutelage of a Roman Catholic bishop. (obvious in that this bishop was sent to Ireland by two Popes to combat Pelagianism).
And he establishes his see with the approval of the the Pope and his mission is deemed a success.......sounds pretty Roman Catholic to me! Now if your point is that the Church was not called "Roman" Catholic is a moot point, as it is obviously the Catholic Church under the Roman bishop (the Pope)that Patrick's allegiance was to.

 

Think we might try a few other sources?

5th century Irish history is a mixture of fact and legend. The views you have presented are much discredited, even by RC's in Ireland today.

 

Greetings,

Ireland was VERY Catholic. There were dioceses set up with Bishops, however MOST of the Church was organized around a monastic model. Which church today even has a monastic model to look at. I don't see many celibate monastic types in the Baptist church. It is also claimed that it was not until 12th century that it was catholic. Wrong again. Charlemagne who was the Emperor in AD 800 brought some of the greatest Catholic Scholars in the world out of Ireland, and this brought of the Carolingian Renaissance. All the Irish Scholars were deeply Catholic.

peace

 

This is silly...

If it's a "mixture of fact and legend," and we can't know for certain, why are we CERTAINLY wrong in saying he was Catholic? You seemed pretty certain that he was not. I'm glad that the rule doesn't apply to you.

 

Notice my previous post - he was not Roman Catholic. The early Irish church which developed was, if we want to modernise the term, "Irish Catholic" until amalgamated into the Roman system in the 12th century. Easter was even celebrated according to the Irish reckoning before then. The Roman churh refused many of the pagan gods and goddesses which the the Irish church had added to their system as saints, while accepting others.

 

There are/were many forms and varieties of what could be described as Catholicism, the Roman Catholic Church being only one of them.

The ancient Celtic Church developed quite differently and in isolation from Romanism; thus, it was organized differently and had a different theology. It was rural-based, centered around families and local abbot-bishops, much less hierarchical than Romanism, relational in nature, and was much closer to New Testament Christianity than other varieties of Catholicism. It had similarities to the later Anabaptists--these similarities were explored recently in a seminar called "There's Life in the Roots."

The Celtic Church remained independent of Romanist influence until the Synod of Whitby.

 

Excellent post Michael. Where do you get your interest in the Celtic Church?

Sadly, along with the good that you mentioned there was some error in the form of what I mentioned above, the adoption of pagan gods and goddesses as saints in the Celtic "Catholic" church. I watching a programme on the telly just last night that talked about an ancient fertility goddess named Aine (an-ya) who was adopted as St Anne of Ireland.

 

C4K,

Thanks. I've been interested in Celtic Christianity for a couple of years; I first discovered it when I found out about the independent Catholic movement. I then discovered that the ancient Celtic Church was close to Evangelical Christianity in some areas, including the Anabaptists.

I think there is always a danger, and always has been, that the church will absorb some of the culture. Would anyone deny that much of Christianity in America today is a cultural Christianity? I've heard American Christianity described as being "a mile wide and an inch deep."

 

True thoughts. I find that the people involved here still, after 1000's of years still hold to their superstition, mixed with their religion. Of course for most today materialism has become their new god.

Ever thought about visiting here to get a taste for yourself??

 

I'd love to visit Ireland. Some of my ancestors were Irish, so it would be kind of like going home.

 

I know a lot of Celtic church sites! You'd really enjoy the trip!