Transgressing the Law

HP: In such a case does the judge inflict ‘chastisement’ for issues that have been sealed and forgotten?

HP: Speaking of red herrings and illustrations that have nothing at all to do with the discussion of sin and it’s penalty……… Aside from that, I will still show good faith and go down that rabbit trail with you for a short length, just because I desire to be fair in answering your objections as 'fishy' as they might be.

If those penalties have been forgotten and are no longer affecting ones insurance rates, are we still receiving chastisement for them??

HP: You keep saying this about a ‘legal sense’ but that makes no sense at all neither does it clear up the issue of God promising not to remember sins that you say He keeps on chastising us for. DHK, if God is currently in the process of chastising one for sin, it is living proof that it is not forgiven and that repentance must be invoked in order for the chastisement to stop and the sin be forgiven and the sin forgotten and cast away from us.

1Jo 1:9 IF we confess (let me take the liberty to add, 'AND FORSAKE') our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

As I say (and may have to keep reminding you) your problem keeps stemming from a rejection of the eternal security of the believer.
I am eternal secure in the hand of God. My sins are all forgiven: past, present and future. They are all under the blood. Now let's get this straight. God put them there when I got saved. That has nothing to do with salvation. How does God chastise me when I get saved? He doesn't. He gives me eternal life, and forgiveness of sins, and many other blessings, too many to count. At salvation He doesn't chastise me; he blesses me with abundant blessings.
I have become a new creature in Christ.

This is no red herring but an illustration. It is true with the insurance industry, and it is true with our justice system, and with any crime that we pay.
When the penalty for the crime is paid, it is paid in full, sealed by the courts, filed away, and forgotten about. It is "erased from the record." The person starts with a clean slate. If the justice system works as it should this should be true for an ex-con as much as it should apply to a driver with demerit points. After six years the demerit points are wiped off. The driver has a clean slate as far as the insurance company is concerned. Those points accrued through reckless driving or "illegal offenses" when driving, are erased from the record.

God is the same way. But the Judge of all the earth does right. He does right and fair, and is perfect in His justice, unlike man. When He forgives (when a person comes to Him for salvation) then all sin is put under the blood to remember no more. The slate is wiped clean.

Yes, in a legal sense, just as I referred to by way of example above. Someone may "remember" your crimes; but as far as the court is concerned they are "forgotten." They are paid for. You have paid the penalty.

In salvation Christ has paid the penalty for you; a penalty that you could never pay. That is why salvation is by grace through faith. It is not of works. We could never pay the penalty. Christ, through his death, and the blood shed on the cross satisfied the legal demands of God for the payment of our sins. That is what the substitutionary atonement is all about. Those sins are under the blood, never to be remembered again.

Now you confuse that with the Christian life with salvation. Why do that? Our life is eternally secure in the hand of God. As long as you reject that doctrine, you will be eternally confused.
God is omniscient. Of course he never forgets anything. But just as the justice system puts away our crimes that we have paid for, and is legally required to "forget" about them, so God "forgets" our sin--all of them, as it is put under the blood. This is all in relation to salvation. No sin will ever be brought up before the believer in reference to salvation. His life is eternally secure in the hand of God. He cannot lose his salvation.

When he does sin now, as a believer, it is an offense as a child of God. As a child of God, God will chastise or discipline him because he loves his children. Discipline is for instructive purposes. It brings his child back to a place of reconciliation. He is never lost and never will be lost. He is eternally secure. Sin now can only break the fellowship that he has with God, just as disobedience of a child separates the child from a parent for a temporary period of time. The child will always be the son/daughter of the parent no matter what happens.

This verse applies to believers only and has nothing to do with salvation.
A believer cannot lose his salvation.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim

HP: In such a case does the judge inflict ‘chastisement’ for issues that have been sealed and forgotten?

HP: You are assuming without proof (i.e., begging the question) the notions you base your whole argument on. You assume that all sins, past present and future , are forgiven (at some time which I have yet to be able to pin you down on yet) yet have never offered one Scripture that states or implies that. I have quoted from the Word of God numerous times as to what sins are forgiven, but you simply ignore the Word of God and hold tight to your unfounded presupposition of OSAS. For the benefit of the listener, I will post once again the Word of God concerning the question, where it spells out specifically which sin are covered and are under the blood at salvation. Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST (EM), through the forbearance of God;” In case anyone still missed it, the key to understanding the Scriptures as to what sins are forgiven at salvation. It lies in which ones are ‘PAST.’

Now DHK, show us from the Word of God where it ever spells out “past, present, and future” as you so often like to tell us.

HP: Let the reader try and follow DHK’s argument if they can. Let the reader determine if he can keep his story straight for two consecutive posts. He tells us now, in his own words, that “God put them there when I got saved.” So now we are to believe DHK that sins are not placed under the blood until one gets saved. I thought the sin issue was settled at the cross, when Christ cried “It is finished?” If we follow DHK’s stated position in the post I am responding to, nothing is finished, i.e., no sin has been atoned for and placed under the blood until one gets saved…unless he is going to tell us that the atonement has nothing to do whatsoever of placing sins under the blood. Has it not been your clearly stated position that ALL sins have been atoned for at the cross?? Can even one sin be atoned for, in any literal sense, without having the blood applied to it? Does not Scripture state that ‘without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins?’ Are you going to tell us that placing your sins under the blood, which you say happens at salvation, is not one in the same with having your sins remitted?

HP: Let the reader note carefully that DHK here tries to tell us that when God places are sins under the blood at salvation, that the process has ‘NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION.” Pardon me DHK? God placing our sins under the blood has nothing to do with our salvation? What on earth are you speaking about? That is as foreign to reason and the Word of God as you can get. Possibly you simply stated it wrong. I will give you ample opportunity to re-word that remark if you see the need. If not I will post that remark in my memory as one of the most absurd statements I have ever read on this debate forum.

 

HP: Could that just possibly be because at salvation, having repented and turned from all your sin there was nothing left to chastise you for at that time? I certainly think so.

HP: In case you do not know, God does NOT chastise anyone for a clean slate, but He does chastise one of His own that has turned away once again to sin. For you then to presume upon the grace of God, presuming that regardless of any or all of your future intents and subsequent actions that they are already forgiven at the cross or whenever you finally settle on that they were forgiven, is an error of eternal consequence.

HP: If you would simply answer the question I gave to you instead of completely avoiding it, you might be able to see your dodging of the real import of this discussion. Let me try once again. AFTER something is wiped off, or set aside, or removed from ones record, does anyone go about continually chastising you for it? Try answering my question just once DHK. If not, you are not debating, but rather fighting windmills of your own imagination.

 

My thoughts are my own and not your or any one else's.

Your beliefs are yours and not mine. I don't have them, nor do I want them.

Yes, lets stay with scripture always: This is to let you know there are more scripture than one. I could quote more, but do not feel compelled to.

1Jo 4:1¶Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

BBob,

 

I would hope that you asked God that, not me. I do not have the answer for you. Billy Graham did not have the answer for you. In case you do not know it, salvation is between you and God, period.

Martha, " I am the resurrection".

"I am the bread that came down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof and never die".

Only You and God, can work that out. Why would you even want someone else to answer that for you, are you in doubt? Do you ask your Pastor if you are saved or not, or do you ask God?

BBob,

 

To show you there are more scripture in the bible than one and we must include them all.

Now, you read how that DHK and I went back and forth over this subject last night, how that I was threatened with being banned, then tonight you start the same subject. I Sir, believe you do not have good intentions and this is not a Christian act, but vengance of some sort on your part. Are you in some evil way, trying to get me banned, or are you just continuing asking the same question that has been answered many times.

I personally would feel silly and stupid, asking you if I was saved at a certain time and place. I think personally this is the most ridiculous request, I have ever heard. You either do not know scripture, or you are just trying to accomplish some evil act. I have answered you, and have absolutely nothing to add to when you were saved or where. I pray that I have made this as plain, so a child can understand. This is all my belief and opinion.

This has become very childish, so if you want children's games, please pick someone else.

BBob,

 

1Cr 13:11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

BBob, :tear:

 

I will allow Brother Bob to speak for his own self, but I believe the verse he posted is good admonition for all of us at all times.

Many people have been deceived into believing that they are accepted in Christ when in fact they are not. Scripture admonishes all of us to examine ourselves to see if we be of the faith. If during that examination one would find unrepented sin contrary to the spirit of love towards God and their fellowman, that would be clear cause to do ones first works over again. If ones works are not in accordance to the faith they say they have, it just could be possible that they have misunderstood a spirit for ‘the’ Spirit of God.

1Jo 1:7 BUT IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. “ If we are not walking in the light, we have no reason to believe that our sins are under the blood and that we are to be found in Christ in the last day.

 

Then perhaps my understanding of what it means to be born again is incorrect. We have shown our understanding, please share with us your understanding of what it means to be "born again".

Thanks, and take care.

 

HP: I would answer no to both of these, yet just the same I fully believe it is possible for the Spirit of God to draw one to Himself by calling on them to repent, and yet a deceiving spirit might in fact snatch away that good word and whisper to them there is yet another way to enter in. Deception is real Steaver. Many are now deceived into believing they have followed the Spirit of God when in fact they have bought into the doctrine of demons. Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

They believed the wrong spirit. They thought they were right. They professed God with their lips but their heart, as proved by their works, was far from God. Their lives were full of iniquity.

 

Thanks Ed :thumbs: It's nice to find some warmth on the Baptist board. We're only sorry people fight and squabble to defend their interpretation of scripture more than study to learn together.

I use the pronoun "we" in my posts, because I believe I am one with the Father and the Son, based on verses such as:

Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God (1 John 4:15).

Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified. (2 Corinthians 13:5b)

And these fulfill the prayer by Jesus that we all may be one.

"I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, (John 17:20-21a).

This may sound foolish, but we believe this is where Jesus (Gee's US) comes from. Such as, gee, it's us!,......we are Jesus, in that, I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; (Galatians 2:20a); and, you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. (Colossians 3:3)

We have died, and it is no longer we who live, but Christ lives in us, and we are members of His body.

We're sorry the posts are not closely read to discern the meaning, unless God has blinded those who read the posts to the meaning.

Take care, and God bless.

 

Although I'm not really sure of exactly what "like beliefs" are being referred to here, here goes, in Blue. However, consider that I do not necessarily accept your own definitions, presuppositions, and 'pigeonholing' implicit in some of your questions.

No.

But I add this. The sin(s) is not only 'paid,' it/they are forever taken away, so that we are both redeemed and 'brought near,' by His blood. (Eph.2:13; Heb. 10; I Pet. 1:18-20) Incidentally, not only were sins taken away on Mt. Moriah, but both 'the law', having been fulfilled by Jesus without sin, and also the 'charges' against us, were taken away, and that occurred even before the Son presented himself to the Father, with our sin(s) imputed unto Him in our stead, and 'covered' the mercy seat on the heavenly altar His blood. [Isa. 53:4- 12; Mt. 5:17; Rom. 13:8; II Cor. 5: 18-21; Ga. 5:14; Eph. 2:11-18; Col. 2:13-15; Jn. 20:17; Lev.9:18 ('type'); Heb. 1:3; 4:15; 10:12] This said, we are justified and righteousness is imputed to us, and thus we fulfill, hence establish, the law by faith, apart from our works, and by love. (Rom. 3:18- 5:21; 13:8-10; Gal. 5:14)

Incidentally, as opposed to 'paid', the Biblical word is "bought," and the idea is that we were purchased from 'the slave market' of sin. (I Pet. 2:1, I Cor. 7:23) And, I add, the idea that we "owe a debt of gratitude, that we could never repay" is a complete oxymoron, and this is also foreign to Scripture, where the idea is a "free gift" while, at the same time, us paying for it in any manner, is merely a bunch of confusing "theological jargon" or what I call "canonized rhetoric."

We "buy" without price. That is what a gift is - free! (Is. 55:1-3; Eph. 2:9; Rom.5:15-18)

Scripture doesn't even know of any such ridiculous nonsense, as withdrawing any 'applied' blood. [I find even the very mention of such an idea extremely troubling, and suggest this is certainly diminishing the value of the "precious blood of Christ' and casting aspersions on God, the Holy Spirit, as well. (Heb. 10:26-31 I Pet. 1:18-19)] In any of His Persons, God is not an "Indian-giver" who acts on a whim. He is immutable. (Mal. 3:6; Rom. 11:29 c.f. Rom. 12:3 & I Cor. 12:11; Heb. 13:8; Jas. 1:17)

Yes. (I Jn. 2:2)

Answered above.

And here we have arrived! Here appears the flaw, not to mention the summation, of what I mentioned, earlier, namely, the "definitions, presuppositions, and 'pigeon-holing' of what Scripture is teaching.What we can "logically conclude" is completely irrelevant.Hence, the question is absolutely flawed, as you here offer a "false alternative" and not only that, but also include your own presuppositions in the definitions, as well.

The real question (and the only one that matters, for this) is "What does Scripture teach?" I suggest that there is not one verse of Scripture that ever says the lost are "held accountable for their sins," nor are they deemed to be (future) "condemned" because of their sins, (Mk. 16:16; Jn. 3:13-18, 36; 5:24), and certainly not in the sense you mean, although they are definitely said to "die in their sins" because they "believe not. (Jn. 8:21,24)

This is not even a question of "unbelief", no matter how many times we tend to use (or abuse) that term, in the sense that one has not yet believed on Jesus Christ. It is an issue of "believing not" or "disbelieve," as per the DBY, ASV, and NASB at Mk. 16:16, and it is an "active" 'refusing to believe' as per the NLT, here. This is "rejection," (Rom.1:1`7-25 ) and Jn. 3:36 shows this as well, especially when one cmpares various versions on this verse. "Believe not" (KJV, NKJV) = "disbelieve" (my rendering, here) = "refuses to believe" (HCSB) = "disobey" (ASV, NASB) = "reject," (NIV, TNIV). 'Same difference!'

However, don't get me wrong, here.What I am NOT saying is that one must DO anything, in the sense you are. To "obey," in the context in John 3:36 is to "believe." Nothing more; nothing less - for this "disbelieve" (apeitheO), is contrasted with "believe" (pisteuO), and in fact, is the first 'meaning' given by Thayer. I believe the Bible teaches justification by faith and having righteousness imputed, or as is often said, "salvation by faith." By contrast, it would appear that you are advocating "salvation by faithfulness," the unspoken code word of many who are wishing to redefine "faith" as "faithfulness." This, I fully reject.

Implicit also, in your questions is that an unbeliever will be judged, at the Great White Throne, according to his sins, hence is condemned, there. Not so, as I have previously posted. They are condemned already (Jn. 3:17-18), but this condemnation is removed when one believes in Christ, and his work. (Jn. 5:24) The sin question has likewise been removed for sin's penalty has been 'paid.' The 'dead' in sin, are judged according to their works, i.e. their "good deeds", and these deeds of the "unjust', are what is found wanting by the Lord, 'meriting' this eternal damnation. (Rev. 20:11-15; 22:11)

Those whose names are not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life, are the ones cast into the Lake of Fire. That was and is the only 'qualification' that is asked, here. (Rev. 21:27)

I suggest we might try a new 'hymn' by singing these words, that would be consistent with what you are saying, so - "Here goes."

"Jesus paid His part,
I'll pay mine also.
Sin had left a crimson stain,
together, we've washed it white as snow."

Somehow, that just doesn't seem to have the same impact for me, as the more familiar words.

Ed

 

Jesus said: "Except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

If a man is born once, he will die twice;
If a man is born twice, he will die once. Take heed to those words carefully.

You must be born again.
Jesus said: That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.
Every person is born of the flesh. That is how we got into this world--by the flesh--born physically.
But not every one is born of the spirit. There are two kinds of birth and two kinds of life: physical and spiritual. We all have been born physically and live a physical life, but not every one has been born spiritually and lives a spiritual life. Therefore Jesus says: "You must be born again.

He also says: "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Here Jesus mentions two agents: water and Spirit.
We all agree that Spirit means Holy Spirit. Every person must be born of the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit is not involved in the salvation of a person he cannot be saved. You must be born of the Holy Spirit of God or you cannot be saved.
Now, what does the other agent, "the water," mean?
Does it mean baptism? No, that would be a heresy, for it would mean baptismal regeneration or salvation by baptism. We are not saved by water or baptism, but rather by grace through faith. It cannot mean baptism. Baptism is not even in the context of the passage.

Does it mean the amniotic fluid of a natural birth, the "water" or fluid in which a baby is born in? Some believe this, and it is a possible explanation, but is it the one that best fits all the Scripture? I don't believe so. I don't believe that Nicodemus would have been thinking about amniotic fluid. He was a Rabbi, a teacher of Israel, and well acquainted with the OT.

The "water" does mean something. Then what?
What is the common usage of water? Water is commonly used for cleaning or washing.

Jesus said:
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
--It is the Word of God that cleanses us.
Remember there are only two agents by which one can be born again water (the Word) and the Spirit.

James said:
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
--We are begotten or "born" with the word. The Word is necessary for being born again, for salvation.
There are only two agents necessary for the new birth: water (the word) and the Spirit.

Peter says:
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--This is a very direct statement that one is born again by the Word of God. Now there is no doubt in the reader's mind. The Word of God is the other agent.
One is born again of the Word of God, symbolized by water, and of the Spirit.

The Word of God is absolutely necessary for salvation. Without it one cannot be saved. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. The gospel is contained in the Word of God. Without the Word of God there is no gospel. One cannot be saved without the Word of God. It is an impossibility.

Christ also said:
John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
--Christ came to his own, the Israelites, and they rejected him and crucified him.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--But those that received him (as Lord and Saviour) to them he gave authority to become the children of God--to them that believe on his name. For salvation comes by faith and faith alone. Why?

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
--Because they were not born of blood (the physical birth), or of the will of the flesh (carnally), or of the will of man (intellectually), but of God
You must be born again--born of God. You must receive him as your Lord and Saviour.

Have you done that? If so, when?