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Transgressing the Law

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Sep 3, 2008.

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  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    An unbelievable testimony. Not questioning it, just saying how unbelievable it is.

    Yea, I know. You can lie your head off everyday, for the rest of your life and go to Heaven.
    My bible does not teach that. God's word does not teach that. It is the DHK doctrine. It saddens me that others follow you, but that is them and they will answer for who and what they followed. BTW: Scripture says the "blind will lead the blind" and they both will fall in the ditch. I am just giving you scripture, not accusing anyone.

    It is so hard to tell who might be a Christian :tear:

    Jam 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

    Jam 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion [is] vain.

    Jam 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

    You think "lying" does not spot you???

    BBob,
     
    #261 Brother Bob, Sep 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2008
  2. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    How do you know you are not being decieved? Since you said that a person can think they are born of God but really be decieved.

    BBob gave me this scripture when I said I had the Spirit witness....

    1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
     
  3. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    As I have preached many many times, "make it as sure as you can, for you only pass this way but once".

    But, HP can answer for himself.

    BBob,
     
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: First, my walk is one of faith, not of sight. I know by faith, not by absolute knowledge. I have not yet heard “Well done thou good and faithful servant.” Until then the ‘possibility’ will always be there for deception.

    When one has a clear conscience before God, having repented of sins that are past and the Holy Spirit testifies to the heart that one is in a right relationship with God, it is a testimony only the redeemed can know by faith as a certain hope of our standing with God. No man can explain it, but God knows how to make it clear to His children that their hearts have been purified by faith and that they are in good standing with Him. As we walk with the Lord in obedience, and our conscience bears clear witness via the Holy Spirit of a clear heart before God and man, again, the Holy Spirit reveals to the heart that we are indeed right with God. Any hope without the testimony of the Spirit that ones conscience is clear before God and man is a candidate for deception. Every believer should strive to make it their daily practice to so walk with the Lord on a daily basis in obedience and purity 'consistently' with the help and promised aide of the Holy Spirit. That should be the reasonable service every believer offers as a daily sacrifice to God. If one will do that, they will not have to worry about deception being their fate. Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
     
  5. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    I said it was "poetic language." Well part of it anyway. I did wonder about my salvation for awhile, many years ago, and that was before I understood in a better manner, what the Lord had done. It's called "growing in grace' in Biblical language.

    What I actually said was that (this is)

    "what I testify to, and have testified to for 40 years.

    I know that I have eternal life, with no doubts, at all. I know this is by faith in Christ, and that this is based on His faithfulness, and not mine, else I could never KNOW that I have eternal life."

    I did not say I had never doubted, but it was a little over 40 years years ago when I really started to understand the full extent of my salvation, and what had been accomplished, and I learned that I could know this, from Scripture. I believe I had been saved for some time, a few years, in fact, before I understood this, but cannot even say that for certain. I went from a "how I had felt" basis, to a "what Scripture says, and therefore I know" basis. I had seen my feelings change, before this. I no longer based my assurance on any feelings, but now completely upon God's declarations. I suspect that it is true of many, if not most, that they may doubt their salvation, at some point. I did some for 5 years, or so, wondering. When the Holy
    Spirit got through to me from the Word, that went away, as I came to understand and learn more. As I said, it's called "growing in grace." (II Pet. 3:18)

    It is not my intention to hurt your or anyone else's feelings on the Baptist Board, and if memory serves, you first responded to a post I made two and a half years ago, that I believe, concerned either "repentance," or "Lordship salvation" where you disagreed with me, even then. I have never questioned your salvation, nor any other, on the BB, in all my time, here, save for perhaps, in my own mind, one individual who was shortly banned. It was found out who that individual was, and that was one whom I strongly suspect was an unsaved individual, but was posting just to 'prove he could' and attemopt to confuse folks, and some others uncovered him, from posts he made at other sites. I never before said one word, about him or this, and it happened very shortly after I came on the BB.

    But you seem to have a double standard, here. You apparently have no problem questioning my understanding of salvation, even on this very post I am responding to. Not to mention you question my motives, which is also something I have never done, of you. I have no doubt of your sincerity, yet you doubt mine. I have no doubt that you are genuinely concerned with the testimony of some you likely see on a somewhat reular basis, who name the name of Christ. I am concerned as well, at times. But that has nothing to do with the fact that a person can be sincere in what they believe,and teach, and yet be sincerely wrong. I do not hold it against anyone that does not agree with me, in what I believe.

    But I still do not have to recommend that individual for a SS teacher, given my understanding of where I believe the Lord has led me, along my journey. (And I don't.)

    I have broken no rules of the Baptist Board, IMO. And I have received no remote hint from the BB brass, that I have done so, in any manner, for at least two and a half years time, although I did get an admonishment from a Moderator in my first month, when I questioned something about a post, not understanding that it had been edited, or recognizing it. In fact, I have seen a couple of threads closed with a note from an Administrator in the post that I had done nothing to cause any such closure, before I had even thought about it. The closest thing I have seen to any such, has to do with the closing of a couple or four of somewhat contentious threads, although I grant, I guess I could find myself banned before the night is over, but I honestly do not expect any such action. If such happens, it just has to happen, I guess.

    I try and be, and intend to be respectful. I make no promise to agree with whatever anyone else posts.

    FTR, I do not believe it is against the rules to question or oppose what someone else is teaching on the BB. Especially in a Debate Forum.

    I have to run to Wally-World, so I have to get off the Board, for now.

    Ed
     
    #265 EdSutton, Sep 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2008
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Well, not really according to your previous statements. You cannot know for sure that you know. The faith you think you have could all be a deception. The clear conscience you think you have could be a lie from the devil, right?
     
  7. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    To me this is saying that I am unsure about my salvation and its sad :tear: , but you are fully assured of yours. That is questioning the surety of my salvation.

    Also, since that 5 years, have you ever doubted at least one time? Do you think that may be true of all the others also?

    BBob,
     
    #267 Brother Bob, Sep 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2008
  8. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    ED;
    I just got back from VA. It is a 4 hour drive and I left at 5:30 this morning and just got home, too late to edit my last post.
    Please disregard anything I have said, either here or in the past. I do not question your salvation whatsoever and even though we have had our battles, I have always respected and like you.

    I know the battles get kinda hot at times and I can be pretty rough, many times it is to make the other party see just how bad, the theology could be, if pushed to the limit, and if it will not stand up in the worst cases, it will not stand for the easy cases. I know I am not right all the time, there has been a couple...........:) . I hope things will carry on as we have, if not, May God Bless you and your family.

    BBob,
     
    #268 Brother Bob, Sep 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2008
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    This was your response to Steaver's post in which he quotes you:

    Let's consider this Scripture and see what Bob is really saying about Steaver.

    1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

    The spirits (plural) referred to are demonic spirits and refer to the spirits of false prophets as the second half of the verse states: for many false prophets have gone out into this world. Here, Bob has accused Steaver of having the spirit of a false prophet, implying that he is a false prophet.
    But that is only part of the context. The full meaning of the verse is determined by the context of the passage, which is in the first three verses of the chapter.
    Let's look ahead then, to verse two.

    2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    --The Spirit of God testifies that Christ is come in the flesh.
    The spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God. This a demonic spirit who denies the incarnation; who denies the deity of Christ. Bob is accusing Steaver of deny Christ's incarnation and deity. He is accusing Steaver of having a demon spirit.

    Verse 3:
    3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    Not only has Bob said that Steaver is not of God, he has said that Steaver possesses that spirit of antichrist. How complimentary Bob is! The spirit of antichrist was already in the world during the time of John. He didn't say the Antichrist was alive, but the spirit of Antichrist--those that were in direct opposition to the teaching of Christ; those that worked against Him and not for Him. This what Bob is testifying about Steaver.

    Test the spirits to see if they are of God.
    The spirits are demons. Bob implies that Steaver is possessed by a demon because that is the context of this passage which no one really bothered to expound. It is a terrible accusation, and should not stand. I believe an apology is in order.




     
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    These are your words, not mine. I had nothing to do with them, nor do I accept or condone them. You seem to be on a witch hunt, but you will not find any here.

    It is good advice to advise all to try the Spirits and see if they are of God. You have read where "the blind lead the blind", have you not?

    You have read, where there are false prophets in the world, have you not?

    You have read, where many will say, we have prophesied in thy name in the end of time, but Jesus will say depart, I never knew you?

    Go read your Bible and if you are a called preacher of God, warn the world of the saved and unsaved to beware of wolves in sheep's clothing.

    I was only trying to help Steaver, you have made it evil in your mind, but to no surprise to me.

    You bare false witness against me and the scripture I used is the word of God. Therefore you must be saying that God should of never used that scripture in the Bible.

    I will tell you, Steaver and all:

    1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    1John 5:
    10: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

    There are evil spirits in the world that are teaching men they can sin against God and it does not matter. God warned us of such prophets and they are all over the world, and for us to try them to see if they really of God. In other words, if they are teaching a doctrine that may cause some to settle down on anything short of salvation, they are not of God. Surely you agree with that? Then again, maybe not.

    Act 19:16And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

    If you are wise, you will try the spirits, if you are not wise, you will follow anything. Wisdom is of the Lord, and he that lacketh wisdom, let him ask of the Lord.

    2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

    2Cr 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    So, Steaver and DHK; notwithstanding, please do try the spirits to see if they are of God. I accuse no one on BB, but advise all to try the spirits and follow God.

    1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

    This scripture is from God Himself, given through Holy men.

    The Devil is certainly after each and every one of you, do not fall into his trap, and believe his lies.

    BBob,
     
    #270 Brother Bob, Sep 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2008
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Bob,
    Those verses are written to Christians. The first word is "Beloved," meaning the "saints," the saved. He is commanding them to test, prove, try the spirits (demons) of false teachers or prophets, that they may know what kind of spirit is in them: perhaps demonic or just the spirit of self. If it were the Holy Spirit it would immediately testify of the deity and incarnation of Christ. If it were a demonic spirit it would immediately deny such doctrines.

    You suggest that we test these demonic spirits on ourselves and in doing so are suggesting that our salvation is from the pit of hell--that it is demonic--that we don't believe in the deity of Christ. Nowhere does this verse say to test the spirit that is in you! Your accusations are vile and wicked and ought not to be tolerated.
     
  12. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    You should be ashame of yourself, turning the word of God into such garabage.

    If you do not know more than the evil spirit is trying to get all of our children, while the Spirit of God is also striving with them, and they need to make a judgement of which one to follow, then you have no business whatsoever of ever being in a stand preaching. IMO You believe the Children of God cannot be lost, why would you believe they are lead by a demon spirit.

    As many as are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God.

    Man, read your bible and quit making such foolish statements. IMO

    You make the foolish statement that I said to try the demonic spirits on ourselves, then you say the scripture is to believers. Man, that is what the scripture says. You need to take a year off of BB and study your bible. IMO


    BBob,
     
    #272 Brother Bob, Sep 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2008
  13. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    I in no way question the surety of salvation, yours or any other. I fully believe the Bible teaches, "once saved; always saved," as us 'grace types' including many Baptists often say.

    What I find sad, is that one can be saved, with everything God has for us, that has been made certain, living as "spiritual paupers" in fear, as though they do not believe any of it, and actually 'enjoy' in living in doubt and defeat.

    I have an illustration that I have used, of two houses, in Goshen on the night of Passover.

    Walking down the street, I spotted two houses, side by side. At the doorway, and from the outside, they look very similar. Both of them had something never seen before - blood on the doorposts and over the lintel. But the similarity stopped right there. One was brightly lit; the other was completely dark. From the one, the air was filled with sounds of joy, laughter, and praise; It sounded like a party, or a joyous celebration! From the other, came only sounds of weeping, sobs, and anguish; it sounded like a funeral, or the aftermath of a great tragedy. I decided to check this out a bit further, so knocked on the door of the closest home, the darkened home. The door was opened, a bit, my hand was taken, and I was quickly pulled inside, where the door was quickly shut again, and triple barred. A strange sight was to be seen, when after my eyes adjusted to the darkness, I saw a family all packed up like they were moving out. All were dressed to travel, and hurriedly eating a meal of whole roast lamb and unleavened bread. There was a fire laid in the fireplace, apparently just waiting to be lit. And through out it all, the sobs and cries of dismay. I asked about the occassion for this.

    "Haven't you heard?" was the response, as some food was handed me. "The Angel of the LORD is coming through the land, tonight, and is going to kill all the firstborn of every house, and we are to move out, and no longer will we be slaves to Pharoah. We are all packed up and ready to move, and after we finish this food, we are to burn the carcass of the Lamb on the fire. We have spread the blood over the door, for when the LORD sees the blood, He will pass over the house, sparing the firstborn." And the anguished cries rose in intensity to almost deafening levels.

    "Why all the weeping and wailing, darkness and locked doors?", I ask the father.

    "We're just not sure, that will happen, we may be in danger, here, and we are saddened because if it doesn't happen as the LORD has said, even though He said we would be safe, then probably things will get worse, even though the LORD said He would take us out of Egypt, into the Promised Land. I don't know about leaving our homes, and moving out of here, either, even though we are supposed to be going to be free. We did what the Lord said, and spread the blood, so that the LORD will pass over, but, we don't know. How can we be sure? and if we are hidden in the darkness, maybe the Lord will not actually smite the home, taking the firstborn, and if He does we are sadde..." I leave this depressing scene, right in the middle of a word, even. I want to hear no more of this. I've got to be able to find something else, somewhere.

    Back on the street, I decide to check out the 'partying house,' next door.
    Again, I knock. The door opens, and I'm again quickly pulled inside, just as before. When my eyes, finally adjust to the bright lights, I notice almost the same strange scene, as in the previous house, from the garb of the right down the the fire that has been laid. The only noticable difference is the attitude and the lights. Again, I ask the occassion. And I receive the precise same response, as at the previous home, exactly word for word. And the shouts of praise and songs increase in intensity, to almost deafening levels, this time.

    The contrast is truly puzzling to me, so I ask one more question. "How can you be so sure and so happy, given all you have just told me, including that the firstborn may die, here?" I ask the father.

    "Didn't you hear a word I said?" he asks. "The LORD will pass over this house, we are going to be safe, we are leaving this place, and we are going to the promised Land! Why would we not be happy?"

    My question for everyone is very simple. Which house was the "safe one" that night? Was one any more or less safe than the other? Were there degrees of death to the firstborn, and degrees of "pass over"? Not at all. The house of defeat was just as safe as the house of victory, and vice versa.

    The LORD came and did pass over, and deliver. Both Houses! Just the same. No difference, there. Which one would you want to live in??

    Despite your apparent dislike for 'dramatic illustrations,' this serves to ilustrate my point about living in victory with joy vs. living in defeat in despair, IMO. (Do you really mean you haven't used any illustrations or poetic langauge in over 30 years of preaching? I'm not sure I can even comprehend such, frankly, from a preacher. Almost all, if not all, I have heard preach very many messages have used at least some sort of illustrations at some time. And Jesus and all the NT writers, as well as most, if not all the OT writers, all use illustrations of sorts.)

    Part 2 to follow.

    Ed
     
    #273 EdSutton, Sep 18, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2008
  14. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    That is an excellent illustration Ed. God is faithful whether we live in fear or victory. But life is much more enjoyable when we just trust God.

    Thanks.
     
  15. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Part 2

    Have you ever preached (or heard someone else preach) that we are going to be a child of God, and an heir with Christ, someday? The Bible doesn't say that.

    Haven't you ever heard it preached, or even yourself preached, that "all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose?" I even gave a portion of this sentence in quotes, but, once again, The Bible doesn't say that.

    Have you ever heard someone talk about being glorified some day and/or living as conquerors? The Bible doesn't say that, either.Doesn't say any of that, and a lot of other stuff, that I've heard preached a lot over the years! And that is exactly what a great number of things I hear preached is - "stuff" - for it surely is not Bible!

    What the Bible DOES say about those three subjects in the given passages is this - all of it found in Rom. 8, BTW.
    Did you get it?? "Led" is Present tense, as is "are". We already HAVE received the Spirit of Adoption! Aorist tense! In English, that is the past tense, nothing about some future happening. We already ARE (present tense, as I have noted) the children of God, and already ARE heirs of God, and co-heirs with Christ.
    As I heard one deacon once say, "If that's not 'Shoutin' Ground', nothing is! Amen! and Amen!

    I'm not just hoping for victory, I know we are going to have victory! I've done read the end of the book. I found out how it all comes out. I'm just goin' back now to fit in all the story pieces! Do I know? Absolutely, don't you?

    I have access to all the blessings and riches of His grace, as that heir - every one of 'em! (Eph. 1:3, 7; 2:7) I'm no longer 'just' a sinner (Ro. 5:8) and a slave of sin (Ro. 6:17); I'm a saint (Eph. 5:3) and a son (I Jn. 3:2)! I'm already an heir of God, and co-heir with Christ (Ro. 8:17) - signed ('written' - II Cor. 3:2; Heb. 12:23), sealed (Eph. 1:13; 4:30), and delivered (II Cor. 1:10; Col. 1:13)!

    In fact, one can find only one instance in the NT where any believer is ever referred to as a sinner, once they are saved, and that is Paul's declaration that he "am chief" of sinners. But there are almost 60 NT references to a believer as a saint, sanctified or holy, all of which come from the same word. Do we still sin? According to I John 1:6-10, we do. But I don't pay the judicial penalty for it, and in fact, even the charge of that sin was laid to another (Isa. 53:6; II Cor. 5:19), and that penalty was paid in blood, already (I Pet. 1:18-19). And I've got the best lawyer (Isa. 9:6; I Jn. 2:1) money can't buy (Isa. 55:1) representing me at the hearing. God, the righteous judge (II Tim. 4:8) looks at me as a glorified son, 'cause I'm wearin' the robe of Jesus' righteousness (Phl'p. 3:9), washed in His precious blood (Rev. 7:14), that was given to me, entirely by faith (Eph. 2:8). Yes, there are Scripture verses for virtually every phrase and clause I have used in these two paragraphs!

    As I once heard a father say to his son, "You're my son! Now act like it!"

    I intend to do just that!

    Ed
     
  16. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Excellent post Ed! May I print and use this illustration and exposition as a sermon lession?

    :jesus:
     
  17. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Well, you can be long winded, but if you do not "fear God", you need a little more understanding of scripture and he word of God.

    Hbr 12:28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:


    I believe you did say you doubted and if you did, all of this postive knowledge you say you have just flew out the window.

    In your stories of the houses you seem to have missed something:

    Ecc 12:13¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

    Also,
    1Jo 2:4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    I was hoping with all that happiness and freedom and being a Christian, you say you have, that we could act like Christians and put this baby to rest. I made the offer, but you are too full of yourself for that to ever happen. I now see that, but with your theology, you can do that. With my theology, I must love all men and that includes you, with your choo choo and 2 houses and I am sure many more. You seem to hold to your stories, but scripture, I am not so sure of. I know one thing for sure, you have described my salvation as something of fear and trembling, while yours is one of happy go lucky, and if you commit any grevious sin, it will be ok. I will take what I believe over what you believe anyday.

    You keep on believing, you can break God's commandments and do as the world anytime you wish. As scripture says, let us drink and be merry for tomorrow we die. I believe you can tell the church from the world by the life they live, which does not include committing the grevious sins of the world.

    Preach the word saith the scripture. No wonder you all are so confused. I have heard the "possum" story many times, have even heard shouts from it, as you say, but does it serve the purpose of God, NO!

    I am glad that I do fear God, as all of His children do.

    The only way you and the others can believe in OSAS, is that sin will not cause you to fall, for you believe the saved can commit any grevious sin, for you have stated such.

    I believe in OSAS, for I believe God is my keeper, and He said "I will never leave you", and believe me, there is much less fear in the arms of the Lord, than sinning and saying "no matter" I was covered at the cross. You say OSAS, but continue to speak of all these grevious sins that Christians can commit. That is the message the devil wants to be told and preached.

    Be careful not to fall in the trap of the follow:

    Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    Mat 7:23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    These are not just words, but the truth. It is really going to happen.

    Concerning the blood over the lintel and door posts. Many say they have it, but its just not there. If you do not keep His commandments, you do not have the Love of God, for they are in the hearts and minds of His children.

    Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.

    Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

    Preach the word.

    Mat 7:21¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


    BBob,
     
    #277 Brother Bob, Sep 19, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2008
  18. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Any and all have my express permission to use anything I print or 'say' on the Baptist Board as ilustrations or outlines, and I do not ask that I be credited, even. I heard this illustration in a message or in class many years ago, and do not even remember who it was that gave it. I would suggest that if one were to use this or anything else I have said, to edit it to carefully check the grammar, spelling, and wording, however, for that probably can and should be improved upon.

    This permission does not include any 'permission' to misrepresent what I have said, or may say, in any manner, however. I presume anyone will know the difference between 'editing' and 'misrepresenting,' for they are surely not the same.

    One might want to check with the "powers that be" at the Baptist Board, as well, for everything any of us 'say' on the Baptist Board is also copyrighted, by law, both by the poster and the BB.

    And I believe what I have posted to be consistent with both BB policy and the applicable laws that cover such.

    Thank you all for your confidence in these matters, and the approval of my posts, in this. I certainly do not seek any praise in this, but I do appreciate your indicated approval.

    In His grace,

    Ed
     
    #278 EdSutton, Sep 19, 2008
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  19. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    I would agree partly.

    I do not believe this to talking about "redeemed Gentiles", however, given the entire context of Rom. 1-3, but the unredeemed, and specifically, the 'moral' Gentiles, here. In fact, I would offer that Paul doesn't really start talking about the redeemed, until after his declarations in Rom. 3. Startin with Rom. 3:21 and the words "But now...", the shift toward speaking of the redeemed is seen.

    Here, he is still 'building the case' that all are 'under sin' with or without the 'Torah' i.e. the 'written' Law given to Israel, and that there is NO difference (Ac. 15:9; Rom. 3:22; 10:19), even though there is 'much advantage' for Israel. (Rom. 3:1)

    The Law in vs. 15 cannot be any different from v. 14, however, for v. 15 is actually an explanatory clause to v. 14.

    Ed
     
  20. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Let me state, FTR, that I have never advocated any sort of "loose living" for Christians. Nor have I offered that any such will not be subject to judgment.

    Ed
     
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