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Translation Decryption

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Van, Jan 22, 2022.

  1. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Many of the Greek words used in the NT have a range of meanings. By contextual study it is sometimes possible to discern which meaning was most probably intended. This process results in a more accurate and less ambiguous understanding of God's word.

    In John 3:3 a word's range of meanings includes "from above" and "born anew." Some translations go with "from above" and others born anew or born again. But, since the hearer thought the idea was to re-enter his mothers womb, obvious the meaning conveyed was born anew.

    Additionally sometimes the English word used to translate the Greek word is itself ambiguous. For example, rather than sanctify, a contextual study might point to "set apart" or to "make holy."

    Consider "foreknowledge" or "foreknew," today the idea is to know something before it happens, to foresee. However the Greek words translated did not mean that at all. The actual idea refers to knowledge formulated or acquired in the past being utilized in the present. When a predetermined plan is implemented, it is according to foreknowledge.

    "Propitiation" translates a Greek word that refers to turning aside God's wrath. Or the place where that action occurs. The result if God's wrath is removed is salvation. Thus the actual idea of Christ being the propitiation is that He is the means of salvation.

    On the other side of the ledger is encryption, where the intended meaning of the Greek word is presented ambiguously so misconceptions frequently arise. When the word "baptize" appears in our translation, some read it as meaning "spiritually baptize" where others understand the same text to mean "water baptize."

    "Through faith" can be used as a "subjective genitive" meaning an action is taken by means of a person's faith or faithfulness, or as an "objective genitive" where a person receives an action by way of the person's faith. Obviously the action received from God would not be based on "dead" faith or "uncredited" faith but upon "credited as righteousness" faith. But all this is hidden, encrypted, in the phrase "through faith."
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Now let's look at Colossians 1:23:

    IF indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

    Here the translations start off with a conditional "if indeed" (eige/G1489)

    However the Greek word has within its range of meaning "since." Thus the verse could be translated as "Since you are persisting in the faith..." This view asks the question, "Since what" and the answer is "being reconciled to God."

    Thus the proof of being reconciled is persisting in the faith and not shifting from the hope of the gospel! Our eternal security is provided by God protecting our credited faith, so we are unable to not persist if we are born anew. That is the decrypted idea of the verse, contextually considered.
     
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Personally, I am not comfortable using “since” but would be more in favor of using “assuredly” or “upon the assumption.”

    “Since” in English typically belongs with a sentence concerning time, and Colossians can be time oriented, but the choice of words for this structure generally rests in what is held as the focus.

    The focus is the firm foundation (term referencing that which is built upon) of which the Apostle preached.

    As always, I submit and am grateful if correction by others, more current and capable, is needed to correct me should I be in error when using other language skills.
     
  4. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for the thoughtful on topic post.

    Other possible choices might include therefore, or in light of the fact or thus.

    In light of the fact you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

    Therefore you continue in the faith...

    Considering the context as translated, thus appears to me to be the best choice:
    he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, thus you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
     
  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    While I appreciate your intro to and purpose for this thread, I have to disagree with this one thing. The Greek word for "to foreknow" (προγινώσκω, proginosko) means exactly that, "to know ahead of time." However, what it does not mean is to predestine. My son's PhD dissertation was on this very subject. It's title was "A Foreknown Destiny for the Socially Destitute: An Examination of 1 Peter's Concept of Foreknowledge in the Establishment of Social-Spiritual Identity" (by up and coming NT scholar Paul A. Himes, author of two scholarly books and various journal articles).

    Dr. Himes examined every single known usage of proginosko in ancient Greek literature for his dissertation, including some never before referenced in the literature, being in manuscripts never yet published. Without a doubt, the word means "to know" ahead of time," but without a doubt it does not mean that the one knowing takes any control over the event foreseen. This is not to say that God never predestines, but only that this term does not refer to said predestination.
     
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  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Just a quick question. What was the basis for what would be considered "socially destitute" for the dissertation?
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Respectfully, it does not mean "to know ahead of time." It means to utilize knowledge in the present that was formulated or acquired in the past. This assertion is made based on the word's usage in scripture.

    Acts 26:5 - because they had known Paul in his youth, they now knew he had lived as a Pharisee. Knowledge from the past being utilized in the present.

    Romans 8:28-29 - they knew in the past that those called according to God's purpose were also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the first born of many siblings. Knowledge from the past being presented in the present.

    Romans 11:2-5 - The example of God not rejecting His chosen people from the past (thus foreknown) is used to teach God in the present has preserved a remnant.

    1 Peter 1:20 - Before the foundation of the world, Christ was known as the Lamb of God, but has appeared now (in the present) for their sake. Knowledge (a predetermined plan) formulated in the past, before creation, being utilized (implemented) in the present.

    2 Peter 3:17 - knowing this beforehand (that some distort scripture) be on your guard in the present. Again knowledge from the past being utilized in the present.

    Not one example of knowing the future.
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Romans 8:17 (Interpretive translation, decryption version)
    and since children, enjoyers also, enjoyers of God's blessings and fellow enjoyers of the blessings provided by Christ, indeed because we suffered with Him, we will also be glorified together with Him.

    Here the conditional "if" is translated "since," removing any suggestion of loss of salvation. And as born anew children of God, we were baptized into Christ's death, thus have "suffered with Him" and accordingly will, at His second coming be bodily gloried when we unite with Him in the air.

    Several translations chose the contextual word meaning (since) including the GNT, TLB, NLT and TPT.
     
  9. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I only agree with you on Acts 26:5. All of the other meanings are clearly "to know beforehand."

    What you are missing is that the word's primary meaning is to know beforehand. The meaning you are giving is a secondary meaning. Here is the Thayer lexicon's definition (though I don't usually use Thayer's because of its age):

    "proginw,skw; 2 aorist 3 person singular proe,gnw; perfect passive participle proegnwsmenoj; to have knowledge of beforehand; to foreknow: namely, tau/ta, 2 Pet. 3:17, cf. 2 Pet. 3:14,16; tina, Acts 26:5; ou[j proe,gnw, whom he (God) foreknew, namely, that they would love him, or (with reference to what follows) whom he foreknew to be fit to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, Rom. 8:29 (tw/n eivj auvto,n (Cristo,n) pisteu,ein proegnwsmenwn, Justin Martyr, dialog contr Trypho, c. 42; proginw,skei (o` Qeo,j) tinaj evk metanoi,aj swqh,sesqai me,llontaj, id. Apology 1:28); o[n proe,gnw, whose character he clearly saw beforehand, Rom. 11.1 Lachmann in brackets), 2 (against those who in the preceding passages from Rom. explain proginw,skein as meaning to predestinate, cf. Meyer, Philippi, Van Hengel); proegnwsme,nou, namely, u`po, tou/ Qeou/ (foreknown by God, although not yet `made manifest' to men), 1 Pet. 1:20. (Sap. 6:14; 8:8; 18:6; Euripides, Xenophon, Plato, Herodian, Philostr., others.)"
     
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  10. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    The dissertation centers on the Jews who were "scattered abroad," the "strangers scattered" in 1 Peter 1:1. They were certainly socially destitute. Dr. Himes, being an MK, identified with them for his dissertation.
     
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  11. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Dr. Himes took a look at this meaning and saw no difference between it and "foreknow."
     
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Let us agree to disagree, as to know before the present is exactly what I said, but additionally anytime the word knowledge is used, it was already acquired, thus the idea of "foreknowledge" is the utilization of that knowledge from the past in the present.
     
  14. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    In 1 Peter 1:1-2, Peter addresses those residing as strangers who were chosen by the sanctifying work of the Spirit according to the foreknowledge of God. Thus they were chosen according to God's redemption plan formulated before creation, and have now be set apart by the Holy Spirit for salvation according to His plan.

    In Acts 2:23 Christ was delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God. Thus Christ was crucified according to God's plan being implemented at that time.

    Therefore our current translation choices, foreknow and foreknowledge encrypt the actual idea of God's message.
     
  15. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    One common phrase, found in about 13 verses is "through or by faith." "Through translates the Greek preposition "dia" and when used to show instrumentality, can be translated as "by means of" or "by way of" when "faith" is in the "genitive" case.

    Romans 4 teaches God credits our faith as righteousness for our benefit. Thus the phrase indicates God uses the "faith" path in bestowing His blessing upon a person or people. Thus a less encrypted version of the phrase is "by way of your credited faith."

    To claim God bestows His blessings using the way of uncredited faith is a denial of the obvious. To claim God bestows His blessings "not through or not by way of credited faith" reflects a liberal rewrite of scripture.
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Acts 26:5 (Interpretative translation, decryption version)
    Knowing me beforehand, from my beginning, they could testify (if they chose) that I lived by the most exacting group of our religion, as a Pharisee.
     
  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    "Decryption Version." Van, does this mean you are working on your own complete translation of the NT?
     
  18. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Perhaps in my dreams, but (obviously) I lack the skills and knowledge to even tackle the task. I am simply sharing the results of my efforts to understand many of the verses where published English translations differ. I think by carefully considering the context better translation choices would "decrypt" God's message to English language people.
     
  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Got it.
     
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