Trinity

Hi, Jacob,

You said:

Maybe I'm misreading what you are saying. Jesus is God but he is not God the Father, and the Holy Spirit is not Jesus, and God the Father is not the HS, etc. So they are not God "at the same time." Maybe you meant to say, how can they all be God?

I also don't think the Bible teaches us that our body is just an empty shell to house the soul. In contrast to the downplaying of the body by Gnostics and New Agers, our bodies were created by God and will be resurrected (though in a glorified but material form). We are a body-mind-soul unity and our body is as much a part of who we are as anything.

I've read several analogies of the Trinity but they all fall short since it seems we don't really have a parallel in this world to God's nature, which makes sense. When I explain the Trinity, the best I can explain it is: We have one Godhead comprised of 3 distinct, co-equal eternal Persons. Of course, Persons does not mean a human person.

The illustration I like best is the triangle. You write "God" in the middle, and the on one corner you have God the Father, on the 2nd corner, God the Son, and the 3rd corner, the Holy Spirit. Then there is an arrow going around the sides saying "is not", so God the Father "is not" the Son who "is not" the HS who "is not" the Father, etc. There are arrows from each going to the center that says God and on these arrows, it says, "is" so God the Father "is" God, God the Son "is" God, and the HS "is" God. It would be easier if I could draw it here, but I can't!

 

I think this will help. God in his true deity is NOT like us. And we are not like him, only in image. You are talking about a being who made all the galaxies and everything that exists. How can we explain the nature of God when we are but a spec of life in this mere galaxy and there are millions more besides ours.

God reveals his intelligence and power through creation and his love through the man we know as Jesus. But to explain God any further is as an ant trying to explain to another ant who and what you are. God in his true form and nature is unexplainable TUR MINDS. The bible says God is one Yahweh, and yet he reveals himself to man in THREE distinct personalities? How is that possible? I DON'T KNOW, but I believe it, because the word of God says so. And that's good enough for me. There are things in life we cannot comprehend with our finite minds, but they exist nevertheless and God in all his power and glory is the greatest of them.

 

True, Ronald, our finite minds cannot grasp God and His eternal nature. However, having said that -- -- I have to say that the Bible does reveal God's attributes to us, and God revealed himself in Christ (though Christ was not the Father). So we can say some things about God from what he tells us in his word.

New Agers and some others are quick to say, "We can't define God. To define Him would be to limit him." My response to that (I used to say that as a New Ager) is, "We can say some things because God has revealed himself in the Bible and through Christ. So we do know some things about him."

Also, there is a move now to try to blur the Trinity. Many Oneness followers (they believe that God is the Father, Son and HS all at once -- 3 in one, it's called modalism and is an ancient heresy) try to be accepted as Christians. For example, the singing group Philips, Craig, and Dean are all Oneness pastors! Many Christians do not know this and usually do not know about Oneness beliefs. But this belief was called Sabellianism in the early church and was rejected. Some Oneness people do not think the Son is eternal and some believe that God the Father is Jesus -- he sort of melds into him.

 

One interesting point to consider is that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the Essence of God, yet are not Created beings but are God "in Essence".

 

The traditional short defintion of the Trinity:

God is three distinct Persons in one Divine Essence.

The disputed passage of 1 John 5:7 is the proof text. Even if this text is not Scripture (I believe it is canonical) it comes out of a very early tradition of the church (howbeit Latin).

I read an essay by John Owen (I believe it was he) who wrote concerning this short defintion of the Trinity and used Matthew 28:19 as the proof text.

HankD

 

Jacob,

Your analogy is not about the Trinity at all. It reflects an understanding of the nature of the human being in relation to God. However, as Marcia pointed out, we are not souls trapped inside of bodies.

Models of the Trinity are all pretty sketchy--even the Triangle (one side of the triangle can't represent the whole of the triangle or in other words a line is not a triangle--this lends itself to tritheism, which is just as big a problem as modalism in the contemporary church though most people believe it without knowing it's heresy). Good try though.

Grace and Peace, Danny

 

What do you all think of social models of the Trinity? Examples can be found in Richard of St. Victor, Bonaventure, Moltmann, Boff--I know some of these guys are a little heterodox in other ways, but I'm asking a question about the general notion of social models.

What do you think of the discussions of immanent (how God is within God's self) and economic (how God is revealed in salvation history) Trinity? Is this distinction helpful? I thinking specifically of Rahner here.

Does perechorisis (innerpenetration between the persons) help in discussing the Trinity or does it leave us with ultimatly another better sounding tritheism?

Grace and Peace, Danny

 

The reason I like the triangle example (though I concede it can lend itself to tritheism) is that you have one triangle with 3 corners, like one Godhead with 3 Persons -- all part of one. Though as I said earlier, there is no perfect model of the trinity so we have to admit that all models will be faulty in some way and point that out.

I am not realy familiar with the social models of the trinity, but from what little I read about them, they seemed more tritheistic to me.

I never heard the one about God being within God's self. It sounds strange and confusing.

 

Marcia,

In the history of western Christianity, we tend to start with the threeness of God, and then proceed to talk about how God is also one. The social models tend to start with God's oneness and move towards threeness--a traditionally more eastern approach.

I agree that they tend to sound more tritheistic, but the flipside sounds pretty monarchianistic. What the social models of the Trinity do promote is social involvment, because they allow God to be more immanent. However, as you and I have both noted all models fail. Ultimately God is mystery though not entirely mysterious.

Grace and Peace, Danny

 

Thanks for the explanation, Danny!

 

"His" or "Him" doesn't by itself mean the Holy Spirit is an individual person.

Acts 12:10, kjv -- Peter is being released from jail by God's angel, they pass the second ward and come to the iron gate which opened of "HIS own accord."

A gate made of iron (certainly not a living person) is referred to as "his."

 

Wopik, the translations I looked at say it opened of "its own accord" or "opened for them by itself."

What do you think the HS is? A force or power? I see by your profile that you are Baptist. Are you saying you do not believe the HS is the 3rd Person of the Trinity?