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True Church _IS_ True Israel

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bismarck, Sep 28, 2007.

  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

    In Paul's mind (and in Scripture) there are three groups of people: the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church of God.
    Reason it out. If a Muslim get saved, does he remain a Muslim? No, he is now a Christian. What about a Buddhist? No. He is now a Christian and Buddhism is forsaken. When the Gentiles got saved, they forsook their pagan religions and became Christians. What happened on the Day of Pentecost?
    "They that heard the Word were baptized and there were 3000 added unto the church." Who were the 3000 added unto the church? They were Jews who had been saved. They did not remain Jews. They became Christians. You can't be a Christian and still be part of your former religion. The Jews and Gentiles were one in Christ because they were saved. They were believers. They did not retain their pagan religion or their Jewish religion. They were now one in Christ because they forsook those religions.
     
  2. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    I'm with you,

    1. Now the temple has been destroyed and the Jews have been scattered, Shouldn't this then be interpreted as the end of the Jewish Religion and the beginning of the New Religion of Christianity? After all, the veil was torn from top to bottom, and AD 70, the deathknell to Judaism

    2. The Temple was at the center of the Jewish life according to the Scriptures. If the Temple is no more, what else are they holding onto?

    3. Not destroyed I agree, but must be assimilated into the one body. What is wrong with this conclusion?
     
    #22 TCGreek, Sep 29, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2007
  3. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    What was Paul doing in Galatians 4:21-31? And you still haven't responded to Matthew's treatment of Hosea 11:1.
     
  4. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    I read the article from the link David Lamb posted and here are some of my comments, plus I am going to include part of my own testimony.

    I agree with this person--however, it is not stated why this Jewish believer rejected Replacement theology. The apostle Paul ALWAYS took the gospel to the Jew first.

    This sounds like the “Two Covenant” or “Dual Covenant” theory taught by John Hagee. Hagee preaches another way of salvation for the Jew, which is in direct violation of Paul’s warnings in Galatians 1:6-9. That article can be found here:

    http://www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm
    I've been saying this all along--there is only one way for anybody to be saved--through Christ.
    I agree with this too. Although when I first got saved, I was a member of a Messianic Congregation for about 10 years. They had worship services on Saturday (shabbat), but I still went to church on Sunday (and I got lambasted for that). I will post my testimony at the end of this post which will tell you why I left the Messianic movement. One of the main reasons I left was because the Messianic Jews were putting the Gentiles back under the law (Torah) and I saw many a Gentile believer really making an attempt to become "Jewish". More on that later.
    This is not true--this is "forcing" Scripture to say what it doesn't mean. Before I got saved, the O.T. was the "Jewish" bible and the N.T. was the Gentile/Christian (I thought all Gentiles were Christians) bible. I went to a Bible bookstore and wanted to buy just an Old Testament because I didn't want a copy of that "Christian" Bible in my home. Needless to say, that clerk began to pray in earnest for my salvation. It was the O.T that opened my eyes to who Christ was--through reading some of the prophetic Psalms (like Psalm 22) and Isaiah 53. The church was a "mystery" in the O.T. and was revealed in the N.T. The O.T. spoke of CHRIST not the CHURCH.

    John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    The CHURCH is mentioned only twice in the Gospels (Matthew 16:18 and Matthew 18:17. The Church was not empowered until Pentecost (Acts 2).
    The first statement is true and I agree. The New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. However, Abraham was not saved through Christ. "Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness."(Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:5). Old Testament saints were not called "Christians"--Abraham and all the other Old Testament saints did not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them as Christians do today.
    It wasn't the church and the gospel which were the substance of the OT shadows--CHRIST IS the substance. The covenant between God and the Jewish nation was NOT "ready to vanish away". It was the Mosaic covenant which was "ready to vanish away" because it was only a temporary system given to prepare Israel for salvation-not given to overthrow her promises in the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants. Israel is still a nation.
    Zion IS the city of our God! This doesn't mean that the Israel's promises and covenants are fulfilled in the Church! Many of our hymns today reflect flawed theology. The True Church is NOT True Israel--that's what is flawed.
    If you love the unsaved Jews for Christ's sake, then please don't preach this flawed theology--that the Church is Israel and all Israel's promises and covenants have been fulfilled in the Church--they won't buy it.
    The heroes of faith were all OT saints--they didn't have a different religion and will rule and reign with Christ and the Church during the Millennium--but they are NOT the Church. The Church didn't begin until Pentecost. (Acts 2). The Church was a "mystery" in the OT and was revealed in the NT.
    God promised Israel an "earthly" Millennial Kingdom. The heavenly kingdom is the ETERNAL Kingdom. Chirst will rule and reign from the throne of David on this earth, in the city of Jerusalem, for 1,000 years.
    Search for peace? There will be NO true peace until Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, returns from heaven, to rule and reign on this earth from Jerusalem for 1,000 years. As for sidelining the gospel--this flawed theology of the True Church is True Israel certainly has accomplished this by taking the focus off Christ and putting the focus on the theology of "theologians".

    Here's part of my testimony:

    In order not to lose their Jewish identity-and become assimilated into the “Gentile” church, Messianic Jews are separating themselves into Messianic congregations-who worship on the Shabbat (Sabbath) and consider Sunday worship something pagan!!! Also, when the Gentiles attend Messianic worship services, they are being told that they need to keep the Shabbat and the Law of Moses in order to keep their salvation. There is nothing which I dislike more than that of a Gentile trying to become “Jewish” The Gentiles are being put back under the Law!!!!!!!!!!!! In order to understand why this is happening, here is a brief explanation:

    The first century church was made up mostly of Jews. After the apostles and disciples died, and the Gentiles came into the church, they brought with them some pagan practices-and eventually-at the time of Constantine-the “Jewish” church became paganized and unrecognizable to the Jewish people. So to speak, Jesus the Jewish Messiah became a Gentile to the Jewish people-and Christianity was the religion of the Gentiles. Now, when a Jewish person becomes born again, he/she desires to retain their “Jewish” identity and not become assimilated into the “Gentile” church. Many Jewish people, especially the ones coming from an Orthodox or Conservative Jewish background, are regarded as “dead” to their families when they become born again.. The families actually have a “funeral” and “bury” their family member/s. These people are NOT Jewish anymore because they have become one of “them”-meaning a Gentile/Christian. They are considered “meshumad”-which means “apostate” in Hebrew.
     
  5. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    AMEN Bro. DHK! Preach it!:thumbs:
     
  6. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
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    Linda64, This- Rev. Fred Klett is a reformed and into Jewish evangelism --- here is his Bio: http://www.chaim.org/bio.html

    Here is the first part of a good article by him which goes on in proclaiming the love we should have for Jews:

    NOT REPLACEMENT...EXPANSION!
    by Rev. Fred Klett
    Much fuss has been made in our Jewish evangelism circles regarding "replacement" theology, the idea that the church has "replaced" the Jewish people in the plan of God. Some have even accused all who think New Covenant believers are "Spiritual Israel" as being guilty of this "replacement theology", that is, of replacing the Jewish people with the church. Charges have been made that this idea of "Spiritual Israel" leads to anti-semitism.

    Ironically my first exposure to the idea of all believers being spiritually Israel came about through involvement in "Messianic Judaism"! Way back in 1975 I attended a seminar by Manny Brotman, president of the "Messianic Jewish Movement International" on "How to Share the Messiah". In the seminar notes I read: "When a Gentile asks the Messiah into his heart and life, he is accepting the Jewish Messiah, the Jewish Bible, and the Jewish blood of atonement and could be considered a proselyte to biblical Judaism and a child of Abraham by faith!" Isn't this essentially a statement of the "Spiritual Israel" idea?

    Getting The Big Picture

    We must submit our thinking to the scriptures and derive even our method of interpreting of the Bible from the Bible itself! We must learn how the text interprets itself! Many have not done this. We can't base our understanding of doctrine on "spiritual" intuition or emotional arguments. We must strive, asking wisdom from the Spirit, to interpret the word of God correctly, and this certainly means we submit to the approach used by the apostles the Messiah appointed to represent Him. And we must understand how the whole Bible fits together and derive our doctrine of Israel within that framework.

    God has had one purpose and plan for mankind ever since the Fall: to restore a people for Himself from fallen humanity through Messiah Jesus. Because of the Fall of Adam we have all come under the curse of God, or as the Puritans put it "through Adam's Fall sinned we all". The Jewish people, and ultimately the Jewish Messiah, brought to the world the Abrahamic promise of blessing to redeem us from the curse of the Fall. Jesus brought the blessings of Abraham "first to the Jew" and then expanded the blessing "also to the Gentile" (see Galatians 3:14 and Romans 1:16). There are not two sets of Covenant promises and Covenant obligations, one for Jewish believers and one for Gentile believers, there is one New Covenant people and one faith (Eph. 2:16 and 4:5).

    God has had but one program from the beginning: salvation through Jesus. God purposed to restore blessing once again to a cursed world. The core of the Abrahamic promise was to bring a restoration of blessing to all peoples through the seed of Abraham. This seed is ultimately the King of Israel, the Messiah. Psalm 72:17 tells us this by applying the very words of the Abrahamic promise to the Son of David: "May his name endure forever...all nations will be blessed through him, and they will call him blessed".

    National and ethnic Israel can only find true meaning within the larger context of the renewal of all things through the Messiah. God's purposes are one. God created the Jewish people to bring Messiah to the world. You cannot divorce any of the promises to Israel from the "big picture" of redemption from the Fall through Messiah.

    God has not withdrawn His promises to the Jewish people. Rather, Paul clearly tells us, "no matter how many promises God has made, they are "yes" in Messiah" (2 Cor. 1:20). The New Covenant promise of eternal life through faith in Jesus is greater than any other blessing of God ever given. Indeed this is the fulfillment of the blessing promised to Abraham. The curse of death and separation from God is overturned through Messiah. Paul clearly says "He redeemed us in order that THE BLESSING PROMISED TO ABRAHAM MIGHT COME TO THE GENTILES through Messiah Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit" (Galatians 3:14). Only through Jesus can people truly come to the blessings of Abraham, life in the Spirit.

    Whether we are Jews by birth or Gentiles, we who trust Messiah Jesus have one common faith. As Paul put it "There is one body and one Spirit -- just as you were called -- one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all." (Eph. 4:4-6)

    Some Jews who are for Jesus call their movement "Messianic Judaism". A few of these Jewish believers distinguish "Messianic Judaism" from "Christianity". I believe it would be better theology to distinguish between a culturally Jewish expression of New Covenant Judaism and a culturally Gentile expression of New Covenant Judaism. Our New Covenant faith is the true, Biblical Judaism.

    Gentiles who come to believe in the Jewish Messiah convert to Biblical Judaism! Our New Covenant faith is the fulfillment of the Old Covenant faith. Christianity is New Covenant Judaism, the true religion of the Jewish people -- even if most Jewish people don't know it yet! The concept of "Spiritual Israel" is a Biblical doctrine. It doesn't mean "replacement"...it means EXPANSION! God has joined Gentiles to the true faith of Israel --He has expanded the nation spiritually!
     
  7. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    I can relate to what you are saying DHK. I am ethnically Jewish and I am born again, which makes me a member of the Body of Christ--or a Christian. It took me a number of years, after I got saved to realize that my ethnicity had NOTHING to do with my faith in Christ. I was a member of a Messianic Jewish Congregation which became so legalistic that they were putting the believing Gentiles who were attending there right back under the law. That was the main reason I left. I also got lambasted for going to church on Sunday. It was like Galatianism all over again.

    I think many are confusing ethnicity with the religion of Judaism. The Pharisees thought that their ethnicity as decendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were going to get them into heaven. There are many Jews today who don't practice Judaism--they are just Jews ethnically. Many Jews in Israel claim to be athiests--I even met a Jewish lady who claimed to have converted to Buddhism. I dropped the Jewish label as far as my faith was concerned, because "Jewishness" is NOT Christianity. I had many misconceptions about Christ, Christianity, and Gentiles before I got saved. I will be glad to send you my testimony.
     
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    This statement is not entirely true. He redeemed us because he loved us, and for no other reason. The promises to Abraham will not be ultimately or completely fulfilled until sometime in the future when Christ comes and the MK begins.
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    PLease can you show us a verse find anywhere in the New Testament saying that there will be restoration physical nation of Israel again in the end time? If you know a verse in N.T. Please show us to prove to support dispensationalism and premillennialism doctrine. Thanks.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    First of all, you need to realize that the Jews have returned (as God promised in Deuteronomy) to the land of Israel--but they returned in unbelief. Read Ezekiel 37 about the "dry bones".

    If there was to be NO restoration of the physical nation of Israel, why did the disciples ask Jesus when the Kingdom would be restored to Israel?

    Acts 1:6
    When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    Acts 1:7
    And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


    Romans 11:24
    For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

    Romans 11:25
    For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    Since God is faithful, He WILL restore the Kingdom to national Israel. It's not some "theological" jigsaw puzzle---it's God's promise.
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Linda quoted this verse:
    Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    which is a reference to this Scripture:
    Jeremiah 31:33-34 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Which if you study carefully can only be fulfilled in the Millennial Kingdom. For only then can ALL know me from the least of them unto the greatest
     
  12. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    First of all, you need to realize that the Jews have returned (as God promised in Deuteronomy) to the land of Israel

    Where in Dt. does it predict the events of 1948?

    --but they returned in unbelief. Read Ezekiel 37 about the "dry bones".

    Lets quote Ez.37:

    Eze 37:13 And you shall know that I am Jehovah when I have opened your graves, O My people, and have brought you up out of your graves.
    Eze 37:14 And I shall put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. And you shall know that I Jehovah have spoken and have done it, says Jehovah.
    Are you trying to make the case this was fulfilled in 1948?

    If there was to be NO restoration of the physical nation of Israel, why did the disciples ask Jesus when the Kingdom would be restored to Israel? Maybe because they didn't know better? There were pretty cluless about alot of things.

    Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


    Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

    Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    You still waiting on Messiah to take away their sins? If you don't think this is fulfilled then there is no hope for the salvation of any Jew until the future.

    Since God is faithful, He WILL restore the Kingdom to national Israel. It's not some "theological" jigsaw puzzle---it's God's promise.

    The same Kingdom John proclaimed was at hand, the same Kingdom Daniel prophesied would come during the Roman Empire.
     
  13. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    Wrong. The Messiah embodies the spiritual temple (John 2:21), made up of spiritual stones (1 Pet 2:5; cf. Matt 3:9), that are the Believers in the Messiah (ie Christians).

    This is why Paul can say that Believers are "in Christ", and are "members" of his body:

    we, who are many, are one body in Christ
    Romans 12:5
     
  14. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    Grasshopper--

    Maybe some day you will understand what God promised to Israel. Your statements have continually been very anti-semetic--as your interpretation of the Bible.

    Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

    Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

    You believe what you want. All you have convinced me of is your arrogance. End of discussion.
     
  15. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    Linda,

    John 8:56
    "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad."

    Abraham saw, and believed, in the Messiah.

    Er go, Abraham is a "Christian".

    -B
     
  16. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    The argument is not over what YHWH-God promised to "Israel"...

    Rather, it is about what lawfully constitutes "Israel" in the Eyes of YHWH-God (which is all that matters).

    Lawful Israel is the Olive Tree. It is composed of all those "sons of promise", Jew and Gentile, who believe in the Messiah...

    who is the rightful Davidic King of that body...

    Hence the term, "Our Lord Jesus".

    Think England in 1066. Think William the Conqueror. Think "William is my King", the king of this realm.

    Now apply all that to Jesus. Jesus is the lawful Davidic King of lawful Israel, which is the Olive Tree, whose "natural core" are all those Hebrews / Jews who Believe in the Messiah, plus "grafted in" (Rom 11) all those Gentiles who do too.

    That tree has not been replaced —*only a few branches, those "natural branches" who are Hebrew / Jews who (for whatever reasons) reject their own Messiah.

    Am I being clear?? You cannot claim, "I am a Jew", and get anywhere with that, in comparison to Believing in the Messiah.

    Have I been clear? The Messiah is the whole focus of the OT, the whole focus of Human History. Against that, what does "I am a Jew" amount to? Salvation is through Belief in Jesus Christ... not through Hebrew / Jewish blood.

    As it is written:

    Matt 3:9
    and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

    Is Matthew 3:9 not clear? John the Baptist, a prophet of YHWH-God, speaking under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, said that having Abraham as your blood forefather does not suffice, for YHWH-God can raise up true spiritual children of Abraham (Gal 3:29) from stones...

    stones who are Believing Christians (1 Pet 2:5; cf. Matt 16:18).
     
  17. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    Do Gentiles need to be circumcized?
     
  18. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    I just love the way you "force" your interpretation into Scripture! Scripture does not say that Abraham or any the OT saints were "Christians" The term "Christian" doesn't even appear in Scripture until Acts 11:26:

    Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

    That verse in John 8 says that Abraham "rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

    Abraham believed by faith that there would be a Redeemer---but he didn't see Christ. The term Christian is used only three times in the Bible, and means Christ-like or follower of Christ--none of those three times does this term appear in the OT.

    Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

    Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

    1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

    Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

    That promise was Christ.
     
  19. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Again, what did Paul do in Galatians 4:21-31?

    He allegorized the narratives of Hagar and Sarah. Run from it if you want to, but much of Scripture is allegorical.

    And you still haven't responded to Matthew's treatment of Hosea 11:1.
     
    #39 Aaron, Sep 29, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2007
  20. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    It doesn't matter what label you put on it. The faith Abraham had was in the promised Seed—Christ. All those who have faith in Christ, have their faith in the same object as Abraham, and are blessed with faithful Abraham.
     
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