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True Church _IS_ True Israel

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bismarck, Sep 28, 2007.

  1. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    WRONG.

    The Jewish / Hebrew "Christians" were called The Way (Acts 9:2, 19:9,23, 24:14,22) and/or Nazarenes (Acts 24:5).

    The word "Christian" is Greek, and was only used by those who spoke Greek.

    Does that mean James, first Bishop of Jerusalem, "wasn't a Christian"??

    Linda —*the argument here is not about the words, but about the meaning of the words.

    James was a "Christian" just as much as Luke was a "Nazarene".

    Christian = Nazarene = The Way = Believer in Messiah.

    Linda —*fine, Abraham wasn't a "Christian", he was a "Nazarene" member of "The Way"...

    Abraham saw and believed in the Messiah.

    My argument still stands.
     
  2. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    First of all, I was addressing Grasshopper. Secondly, your explanation is as clear as mud!!:thumbs:
     
  3. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    If you get any clearer, everyone will be confused. Are you a Baptist? This stuff is NOT Baptist! Nobody who claims to be Baptist teaches or believes this nonsense.
     
  4. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    You won't answer because you can't answer. Congrats, you have now added arrogant along with anti-semetic and a heretic as the names you have called me.

    What a sweet Christian lady you must be.
     
  5. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Here is what I found concerning Covenant and Replacement Theology. The problem is there seems to be misunderstandings of what they are:

    This fits my view:


    Question: "What is Covenant Theology and is it Biblical?"

    Answer:
    Those who hold to Covenant Theology believe that there is and has always been only one people of God. They believe that Israel was the Church in the Old Testament, and the Church is Israel in the New Testament. What were promises of land, many descendants, and blessing in the Old Testament to Israel has been converted to spiritual blessings for the Church in the New Testament.

    But this seems to lump them together:

    Replacement Theology essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of Replacement Theology believe that the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. All the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel can be divided into two camps: either the Church is a continuation of Israel (Replacement Theology / Covenant Theology), or the Church is completely different and distinct from Israel (Dispensationalism / Premillennialism).

    I've always thought Covenant theology was defined as the Church as the fulfillment of the promises made to Israel, and Replacement Theology was defined as the Church replacing Israel as the receipiant of those blessings.

    Am I correct?
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    There is no Scripture that gives a specific 1948 date as a fulfillment. However there was no Scripture that gave a 70 A.D. date for the destruction of the Temple, and that is widely accepted as the fulfillment of Scripture as judgement upon that nation for their rejection of Christ as Messiah; their rejection of the gospel message.

    Often when a prophet gives a prediction he is like a man standing on a plateau and looking at a range of mountains off into the distance. His line of vision may catch two, three or even four peaks before it ends in eternity. Thus one prophecy can include two, three, maybe even four time periods, as the prophet looks well into the future. There are many prophecies that have a "double fulfillment." The one concerning Israel becoming a nation is one such prophecy. The fact that it did become a nation in 1948 was only a partial fulfillment. It will be a complete fulfillment in the MK, when all of Israel will be saved, and gathered together in the land which God originally promised them.
    Again, a partial fulfillment, that has its ultimate fulfillment in the MK.

    Yes, you are right. The disciples didn't understand a lot of things. Neither do we. The disciples did not know when Christ would establish his kingdom, and we still do not know to this day when he will establish his kingdom. Nothing has changed has it? There was an expectation of a coming Kingdom then. That is what every Jew expected. And the majority of the Jews rejected Christ as their Messiah for that reason. They could not understand the concept of a suffering Messiah who would not set up an earthly kingdom.
    However, the restoration of the physical kingdom will come; and Israel as a nation will again be restored.


    I am still waiting. Israel is still waiting. Every Believer is still waiting.

    Jeremiah 31:33-34 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
    It was at hand inasmuch as the coming of Christ was at hand. Isn't that what John said?

    Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
    --The last promise and the last prayer of the Bible are directly related to the Second Coming, directly after which will be the MK. John knew that; do you?
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Since most of your information comes from here,
    http://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

    It seems to be fairly good. However your own personal conclusion, though in principle it is true, in reality it goes much further than "replacing Israel as the recipient of those blessings." It denies the very existence of Israel: its name and its land. How can you deny even the existence of a nation which has existed for 2000 years, a nation which has been hated for centuries, a nation which was the hated object of Hitler, a nation which was finally recognized by the UN in 1948 and was given back at least a part of its land. It is incredible that these people will deny all of this.
     
  8. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Grasshopper
    First of all, you need to realize that the Jews have returned (as God promised in Deuteronomy) to the land of Israel

    Where in Dt. does it predict the events of 1948?



    There is no Scripture that gives a specific 1948 date as a fulfillment. What prophecy do the events of 1948 fulfill?However there was no Scripture that gave a 70 A.D. date for the destruction of the Temple, and that is widely accepted as the fulfillment of Scripture as judgement upon that nation for their rejection of Christ as Messiah; their rejection of the gospel message. What scripture do you use for this ascertion?

    Often when a prophet gives a prediction he is like a man standing on a plateau and looking at a range of mountains off into the distance. His line of vision may catch two, three or even four peaks before it ends in eternity. Thus one prophecy can include two, three, maybe even four time periods, as the prophet looks well into the future. Straight from Dwight Pentecost, only his opinion and his method to justify his position.There are many prophecies that have a "double fulfillment." Once again a dispie tool to prop up their system. Which prophecies have "double fulfillments"? Why double, why not triple or quadrupleetc., who decides which have multiple fulfillments? Dispies only?The one concerning Israel becoming a nation is one such prophecy. The fact that it did become a nation in 1948 was only a partial fulfillment.Fulfillment of what propecy? It will be a complete fulfillment in the MK, when all of Israel will be saved, and gathered together in the land which God originally promised them.

    Quote:
    --but they returned in unbelief. Read Ezekiel 37 about the "dry bones".

    Lets quote Ez.37:

    Eze 37:13 And you shall know that I am Jehovah when I have opened your graves, O My people, and have brought you up out of your graves.
    Eze 37:14 And I shall put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. And you shall know that I Jehovah have spoken and have done it, says Jehovah.
    Are you trying to make the case this was fulfilled in 1948?
    Again, a partial fulfillment, that has its ultimate fulfillment in the MK. When was it partially fulfilled?

    Quote:
    If there was to be NO restoration of the physical nation of Israel, why did the disciples ask Jesus when the Kingdom would be restored to Israel? Maybe because they didn't know better? There were pretty cluless about alot of things.

    Yes, you are right. The disciples didn't understand a lot of things. Neither do we. The disciples did not know when Christ would establish his kingdom, and we still do not know to this day when he will establish his kingdom. Daniel knew, and told us. John knew and told us.Nothing has changed has it? There was an expectation of a coming Kingdom then. Why was there an expectation?That is what every Jew expected. And the majority of the Jews rejected Christ as their Messiah for that reason. They could not understand the concept of a suffering Messiah who would not set up an earthly kingdom. So, where does scripture say the establishment of the Kingdom was contingent on Jewish acceptance?
    However, the restoration of the physical kingdom will come; and Israel as a nation will again be restored.


    Quote:
    Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

    Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    You still waiting on Messiah to take away their sins? If you don't think this is fulfilled then there is no hope for the salvation of any Jew until the future.

    I am still waiting. Israel is still waiting. Every Believer is still waiting.
    So your sins have not been taken away? And you call me a heretic? Why would you be waiting, according to you this promise wasn't for you.
    Jeremiah 31:33-34 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    God still remembers yours?


    Quote:
    Since God is faithful, He WILL restore the Kingdom to national Israel. It's not some "theological" jigsaw puzzle---it's God's promise.

    The same Kingdom John proclaimed was at hand, the same Kingdom Daniel prophesied would come during the Roman Empire.
    It was at hand inasmuch as the coming of Christ was at hand. Isn't that what John said? No,


    Mar 1:15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God draws near. Repent, and believe the gospel.


    Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
    --The last promise and the last prayer of the Bible are directly related to the Second Coming, directly after which will be the MK. John knew that; do you?

    Here is what John knew:

    Rev 1:1 A Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to Him to declare to His servants things which must shortly come to pass. And He signified it by sending His angel to His servant John,

    Rev 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads and hears the Words of this prophecy, and the ones keeping the things written in it, for the time is near.

    Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he who keeps the Words of the prophecy of this Book.

    Rev 22:10 And he said to me, Do not seal the Words of the prophecy of this Book; for the time is at hand.

    I thought dispies took the Bible literally? What is the literal definition of "at hand", "near", quickly, and "shortly come to pass"

    Do the New Heavens and Earth come after the MK or before it?
     
  9. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    It seems to be fairly good. However your own personal conclusion, though in principle it is true, in reality it goes much further than "replacing Israel as the recipient of those blessings." It denies the very existence of Israel:I acknowledge the existence of modern Israel. its name and its land. How can you deny even the existence of a nation which has existed for 2000 years, You better do a little history review.a nation which has been hated for centuries,How could something be hated that wasn't in existence? a nation which was the hated object of Hitler, a nation which was finally recognized by the UN in 1948 and was given back at least a part of its land. It is incredible that these people will deny all of this. Deny what?

    What is incredible is that you and others think modern Israel is the Israel of the OT.
     
  10. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    I wasn't aware that OT nation of Israel has moved to a different location.:laugh: Have you ever looked at any maps which are located in the back of most Bibles? The maps are there for a reason.
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    What is incredible is that you and others think modern Egypt is the Egypt of the OT.

    And indeed it is. And the unsaved Egyptian in this day and age must be saved in the same way that the unsaved Jew must be saved. They each have their own land, their own home, and their own religion. As long as they reject Christ they will go to hell. But in the tribulation period Christ will be true to his promise "and so all Israel shall be saved," speaking of the remnant which shall be left at that time.

    During the MK, if any Egyptian should be fortunate enough to escape the wrath of God during the Tribulation, he will be forced to call Jesus Christ, Lord of Lords, and King of Kings, and worship him whether he wants to or not. He will also call that "nasty Jew" blessed.
     
  12. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    :thumbs: Bro DHK!

    I am trying to figure out where the OT Israel is located now if it isn't the same as modern Israel. This statement alone makes God a liar.

    Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. (Jeremiah 31:35-36)

    It sounds like Scripture is being allegorized to come up with statements like this.
     
    #52 Linda64, Sep 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2007
  13. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

    Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace

    What did Jesus say "it is finished"??
     
  14. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Well, I think you know what I mean. You think you can earn some cheap points?

    If then Israel of today is the Israel of the OT then everything Jesus said about them still stands:

    Mat 23:33 Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? (read all of Matthew 23)

    Rev 2:9 I know your works and tribulation and poverty (but you are rich), and I know the blasphemy of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

    Rev 3:9 Behold, I give out of those of the synagogue of Satan, those saying themselves to be Jews and are not, but lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

    Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you have now been the betrayers and murderers;

    Funny, I never hear dipsies like you call Jews vipers or Jesus killers or Satan worshipers. Why is that? Was Jesus anti-semetic? You are quick to call fellow Christians names and I'm sure you are the same with the Arabs, but why not the Jews if they are the same as OT Jews?

    I guess you and DHK believe all the ancient civilizations still exist because their land is still here. I know, lets all move to Palestine call ourselves Hittites, then we can say we are the Bilical Hittites.
     
    #54 Grasshopper, Sep 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2007
  15. standingfirminChrist

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    Grasshopper...

    Do you not know the distinction between the Jewish leaders of Jesus' day and the land of Israel?

    When Jesus said

    [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? (Matthew 23:33)

    He was speaking to the scribes and pharisees not the entire nation of Israel.

    I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but [are] the synagogue of Satan. (Revelation 2:9)

    Here He is speaking of those claiming to be Jews in the Church of Smyrna, not the entire nation.

    Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. (Revelation 3:9)

    Here He is speaking of those claiming to be Jews in the Church of Philadelphia, not the entire nation.

    Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: (Acts 7:52)

    Here, Stephen was talking to an unsaved people. They were serving the god Repham... see verse 43.

    These rebukes were to a people claiming to be a people of God, but were not.

    You need to use the verses in context, or not use them at all.
     
  16. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    Jesus was speaking to the Jewish LEADERS--not to the entire nation. It was the Jewish leaders who had Jesus crucified--it was not the entire nation.

    BTW, I grew up in a Catholic neighbor where Jews were called "Christ killers". These Catholics were GENTILES ---Do you label all Jews "Christ killers" also?
     
  17. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    I do, but apparently dispies don't.
     
  18. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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  20. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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