True/False : it is The Will of God that NONE perish, All Receive His Son Jesus!

The word just means fair, look it up.

If all men are equally bad, then God should elect all or none to be fair. It is you that struggles with this, not me. It is Calvinism that must resort to the "potter" argument to explain away what appears to be injustice to reasonable persons. Your own God-given conscience is troubled as you admitted.

A potter does not intentionally make defective work, this is where Calvinism goes off the track. A potter will reject a defective work that cannot be fixed, but he doesn't make it defective by design.

Uncondional Election denies justice for the very fact that it does not take the man into consideration.

If the Police simply arrested people on a whim, and not according to whether they had committed a crime, would they be just?

UC is a man made doctrine that is not scriptural and denies God's own words that he will justly judge every man according to their works.

 

The word just means fair, look it up.

If all men are equally bad, then God should elect all or none to be fair. It is you that struggles with this, not me. It is Calvinism that must resort to the "potter" argument to explain away what appears to be injustice to reasonable persons. Your own God-given conscience is troubled as you admitted.

A potter does not intentionally make defective work, this is where Calvinism goes off the track. A potter will reject a defective work that cannot be fixed, but he doesn't make it defective by design.

Uncondional Election denies justice for the very fact that it does not take the man into consideration.

If the police simply arrested people on a whim, and not according to whether they had committed a crime, would they be just?

UC is a man made doctrine that is not scriptural and denies God's own words that he will justly judge every man according to their works.

 

You don't like nor accept God's justice. You allude to mans works that God should consider those. You don't see God as fair. You can't stand it. It angers you.

As to your reply and nonsensical ramblings:

Uh, not even close. Nice way to twist words. Nice, fabricating way to twist what is going on with you inside, to try and attempt to lay it on me. I think you're worked up again. Yes?

You're analogy of the potter is not close to biblical. I hope you can see that. It's your words, not God's. It's not the testimony of Romans 9. You've rewritten it to your liking, because to see it as it is truly makes you angry and you think God unfair. It's bleeding through your writings again.

You don't think God is fair. Plain and simple.

When I said I struggled with it, I meant biblically, figuring it out. But it's right there. I had to face it, and it's beautiful in it's teaching and representation of Gods ways.

The injustice that appears to you is further proof that you don't see God as fair. Or in a full Biblical context.

I see all of it as God being Just. I have not trouble with it at all. You on the other hand? You can't take it. You're angry about it.

Also, the Potter has power over the clay, to make one vessel to honor, the other to dishonor. Isn't that what Scripture says instead of this nonsense you've just spewed, in order to, as I've said, make God after and according to your own liking?

This is exactly what you do and have done.

Your assessment and weak, non-biblical analogy of the potter is theological shipwreck. It's not truth. It's a total denial of the Biblical model. It is not the testimony of the passage you've mishandled.

That you use these unbiblical, Bible truth denying illustrations, against Scriptures truth, to prove your point is startling, friend.

And shameful.

 

LOL, See what just happened there Preach4?

UC is a man made doctrine that is not scriptural and denies God's own words that he will justly judge every man according to their works.

 

Right On...:applause:

 

We must let God speak for Himself. If this is what the text says then there is no need for interpretation.

 

Thou dost protest too much. Looks like I struck a nerve.

God was just in condemning Pharaoh, as he refused to repent (Exo 10:3). God was just in sparing Moses who had faith and foresook Egypt (Heb 11:27). God did not destroy Pharaoh without cause, because of his continuous and unrepentant rebellion he was "fitted to destruction" (Rom 9:22). A potter has every right to destroy defective work that cannot be corrected, but no potter in his right mind would intentionally make defective work. The people of Paul's time would know this as a potter was a common occupation. It is nonsensical to believe any potter would make defective work simply for the intention of destroying it, what profit is that? If you want to believe that I can't stop you, but it makes no sense at all. Very poor analogy if this is what Paul was trying to say.

 

You don't think God is just. Or fair. Whichever word you want to use that makes it most comfortable.

EWF just happens to believe the Bible, even when it says God made the wicked for...

 

No, I believe God is perfectly just and judges men according to their works as he said.

To understand the potter in Romans 9, you need to read of the potter in Jeremiah 18.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Ever watch a potter? They form the clay into some useful object. But if the vessel is defective or marred, he crushes it into a mound and starts over forming a new vessel.

Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, TURN FROM THEIR EVIL, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

God was comparing Israel to clay in a potter's hand. If they were marred (evil), he could justly destroy them as a potter destroys a defective vessel. But if they repent (allow themselves to be corrected by the potter's hands), God said he would repent and not destroy them.

He also says in verses 9 and 10 if he builds a kingdom and plants it, if they do not obey his voice he would repent of the good he said he would benefit them.

So, the potter in Romans 9 does not support Unconditional Election whatsoever, it is very conditional upon a person's obedience to God's word.

Try reading the whole Bible instead of a few cherry-picked verses. You can make the scriptures say anything you want if you cherry-pick.

 

Most people who are as handsome and intelligent as I am are conceited. But not me. I'm humble.

And proud of it.

 

Chapter 19 of Jeremiah makes this abundantly clear, in verses 1-2 Jeremiah is told to take a potter's earthen bottle and proclaim his words to the ancients of the people and priests.

In verses 3-9 he says the people have FORSAKEN him and have sinned, sacrificing their children to Baal which he never commanded or came into his mind. He tells how he will make Jerusalem desolate, and they will eat the flesh of their sons and daughters. Then he commands Jeremiah to break the bottle.

Jer 19:10 Thou shalt break the bottle in the sight of the men that go with thee,
11 And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury.

Paul was referencing Jeremiah 18 and 19 in Romans 9, and was hardly arguing Unconditional Election.

Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in my hand, O house of Israel.

Bet you don't hear much on Jeremiah 18 and 19 in Reformed churches.

 

No no, You don't think God is fair. You think people do things and He owes them salvation. You don't like Him being God and being Sovereign. Youre nothing more than clay replying against the potter. You believe election is conditional, based upon works, which is theological suicide.

Anyhow...

Cherry picking would be way better than misintepretation son. Which is what you do regularly. Wonder why, and what it means that you do this always? :smilewinkgrin:

To better understand your Bible, you need to get some help with basic theology and hermeneutics. Maybe more.

These are two completely separate issues. It is beyond belief how far off track you are theologically.

Yeah yeah, we know you believe God will judge you by your works. Here is what you mean by that, since you believe your calling was conditional, not unconditional, by your own words:

You believe you merited God's favor by being a good boy, and that He then gave you a gift in return as you deserve it. Because you know, all on your own effort you repented. Then since you did that you merited, earned, worked for and proved yourself worthy of savlation. Kind of like joining a Masonic Lodge. Do a few things, a couple tricks and *boom* you're in. (But we biblicists/calvinists truly know what all of this really means).

You believe that because you were a good boy, He then chose you, no wait, you chose Him, oh yes, He had to choose you because He judged your works and saw you earned it. Then He said OK and saved you, or better yet, you helped Him save you.

Romans 9: Sovereign God.

You? Way off track.

Are you really preaching somewhere?

I've never seen a preacher misunderstand Scripture more than you. All this time I've been gone you should've gone to school. I'm just not sure which would accept you after you give them your statement of faith and way of salvation, based upon your own ramblings here. None that I know of believe that we are saved by works.

 

First, I am not a preacher, and never claimed to be.

Second, you have no idea what I believe.

But election is not unconditional, those men who submit to God and trust in Christ are chosen, those who refuse to believe the truth shall be cut off.

You seem to believe a man can submit to God as sovereign, and yet not obey him. Quite a contradiction.

If you believe man can claim Christ, and then live like the devil, you are deceived.

1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

You just keep on believeing you can say you believe and then live like the devil and see where that gets you.

 

Thankfully you're not a preacher. Hopefully you teach no one your false doctrines.

Say what you want, twist, fabricate, lie and deceive, I espouse nor teach nothing you claim I have by your false statements.

I said one can live like the devil...&c? Uh. No.

I said one can claim God Sovereign and not obey him? Uh? Nope. Although it can happen.

That you are lying about me is not hard to believe. You make and love lies.

Also, I do know what you believe. Your false teachings are everywhere on here, so yep, I do know what you believe. You believe you are chosen for something you've done, as if you've earned it. By your own words. You believe your works have saved you and have made you elect.

Wow.

That's all we need to know in order to know where you stand.

 

Naaa Shakespeare.....not even close. But it does reveal you quite plainly.

 

Yup. He has revealed himself.

1) He lies about others and what they've said. In other words, he says persons have said thus and so, as if it were true, and as if others will not looksee.

2) He believes in conditional salvation, by his own words, that God saved him by judging his works. This by his own words.

3) He twists and misinterprets Scriptures.


We need nothing further.

 

I get this sinking feeling when I see an otherwise interesting thread descend into finger-pointing and name-calling.

Winman and I will rarely agree, but attacking him instead of his position adds nothing to the discussion.

C'mon folks, can we cool it down a bit?

 

And you believe God chose you for some unknown reason, and this alone will get you to heaven. Your personal actions are of no consequence as you show by your adversion to good works.

How anybody can read the Bible and not see God constantly telling people to turn from sin is amazing.

I am in no way saying a person is saved by works, a person is saved solely by trusting Christ. But anybody who believes trusting Christ is a license to sin is deceived.

 

Perhaps you should read his error that is called out before you comment?

Cool your jets.

Attacking his position is attacking him?

You need to know what you're talking about. Nothing I've said is an attack on him, but on his teachings, hero.

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: