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Featured Trump Admits His Trade Policy Would Mean Higher Prices

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by InTheLight, Jul 1, 2016.

  1. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    There are plenty of clothes that are made in the USA. Be prepared to pay $125 or more for a men's dress shirt for example. That's too rich for me.

    Think of the tariffs that would need to be put on imported men's dress shirts so that made in USA shirts could compete. Trump has mentioned up to 45% tariffs on Chinese goods. That is too small to help the clothing industry.

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  2. Smyth

    Smyth Active Member

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    A 45% tariff (I don't support anything that high) along with some deregulation could easily move American clothing manufacturers from 2% to 20% of the market. There could soon be a tipping point where increased automation along with tariffs could make American clothing companies truly competative with Chinese companies, even for WalMart customers.

    Any tariffs should be offset by tax reductions elsewhere, making American goods more affordable.
     
  3. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Pulling numbers out of the air I see.

    Exactly what could be deregulated in the clothing industry?

    What specific taxes would you cut to make American goods more affordable?
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    #23 InTheLight, Jul 2, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2016
  4. Smyth

    Smyth Active Member

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    Forgive me for not being an idiot. Economics is a game of margins. Any tariffs on clothing imports, no matter how small, will boost American clothing manufacturing. (I don't pull numbers from the air. I'm not an idiot, so I'm able to make reasonable estimates.)

    But, someone else might argue that 45% tariffs would be no help. But, they themselves, knowing their own limitations, would refrain from attempting to give us some idea of how much the tariffs would have to be to help.
     
  5. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    If a US made dress shirt costs $125 and a dress shirt from India costs $40, and one from Vietnam costs $30 I guarantee that US output of dress shirts are not going to increase with a small tariff.

    I doubt that even a 45% tariff would move the needle much.




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  6. Smyth

    Smyth Active Member

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    If I talk to you anymore, you should start paying me tuition as your professor.

    The manufacturing cost is a fraction of the retail cost, especially at a non-discount store that sells more expensive shirts. An identical shirt to a Chinese shirt only costs an American company a very little bit more to make. A shirt that costs three times a much is going to be higher quality and have a higher markup (premium charged by the store). It's a different shirt. American companies tend to produce higher quality products because they don't want to compete on price.

    Many factors go into buying decisions, price is just one of them. There are people on the fence between the import and the American shirt. They might go with the import because it's cheaper. But, if the price difference were just a little bit less (such as resulting from a tariff), they'd go with the American shirt.
     
    #26 Smyth, Jul 2, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2016
  7. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Absoutely - and 100% of Citizens should be paying income taxes - not just the 50% or so
     
  8. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Uh-huh. I've been a business owner of a manufacturing company and have been selling to major retailers for 27 years. I know all about their margins and markups. I'm certain I would school you.

    An American shirt costs more than "a very little bit more" to produce than a Chinese shirt. The Chinese clothing manufacturing worker might make $3.00 an hour. The American worker will make $12 or more.

    The typical $35 retail priced Chinese dress shirt probably costs a store chain like Macy's or JC Penney about $8.00 or $9.00. That means the Chinese company can make it for less than $5.00.

    Previously you said a 45% tariff on Chinese good would cause American clothing manufacturers to increase market share from 2% to 20%. Essentially you are saying they would want to compete on price if there was a tariff. But a 45% tariff on a $9.00 shirt would only add $4.00 to the wholesale price, meaning instead of being a $35 retail shirt it would now be a $45 retail shirt. So why would this cause the entire American clothing manufacturing business model to change? Why would retailers that carry American made shirts drop their price from $125 to compete with a $45 shirt when they wouldn't want to compete with a $35 shirt?

    No, there are not people on the fence wondering if they should buy the $125 American shirt or the $35 Chinese shirt. The addition of a tariff would not make a $125 American shirt competitive with a $45 Chinese shirt any more than it was competitive with it at $35.
     
    #28 InTheLight, Jul 2, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2016
  9. Smyth

    Smyth Active Member

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    If it takes 10 minutes of labor to make and package a shirt, that's $0.50 labor cost in China and $2.00 for America. That means an American-made shirt costs $1.50 more to produce, due to labor.

    A 45% tariff on a $8 Chinese shirt (a common dress shirt) is $3.60, making the Chinese shirt more expensive ($2.10 more expensive). For an $80 shirt (e.g. fine silk), the tariff would be $36 (and maybe 20 minutes of labor for the better quality shirt, making the Chinese shirt $32 more expensive).

    If there's no one on the fence deciding between $125 and $35 shirts, then there's no one buying a $125 shirt, and therefore no such thing as a $125 shirt (no one is going to make what no one is buying). So, where do you get the hypothetical $125 from? Certainly not the cost of making a shirt over an identical $35 import.
     
  10. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    OK, let's accept that the labor portion of producing the shirt is 3X more, or $1.50 more. That's not the only difference in cost. Or do you want us to believe an American made shirt costs the manufacturer only $6.50 to make?

    No, the Chinese shirts costs $5.00 to make and is sold to chain stores in America for $8.00. The chain store would then pay the $3.60 tariff so there overall cost would be $11.60. This would be a $45 shirt at Macy's.

    You need to tell us what you think it costs an American company to make a shirt, and what they subsequently sell it for and what it's retail price would be and then we can make comparisons.

    Look at any American made dress shirt, like Thomas Pink, Gitman Brothers, Brooks Brothers, etc. The cheapest ones are $100. People that are shopping these brands are not looking at Arrow and Van Heusen.



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  11. Smyth

    Smyth Active Member

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    I think it costs an American company $1.50 more to make a cheap shirt, vs. China. $4.00 more to make a reasonably nice dress shirt. Materials cost should be about the same wherever the shirt is made, for an identical shirt. Other than labor, manufacturing costs are about the same wherever something is made.

    An identical Gitman Brothers shirt would only cost a few dollars less to make in China. Even a tiny tariff would make a Chinese GB shirt more expensive (even though GB shirts don't cost anywhere near their suggested retail price to produce).
     
  12. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Clothing manufacturing is not my area of expertise. Let's say your numbers are accurate, and it only costs $1.50 more to make a shirt in the US. If so, there is nothing stopping American made shirts from competing with Chinese shirts right now. If the choice was Brooks Brothers for $45 or Van Heusen for $35, I'd be all over the Brooks Brothers.

    I don't see Brooks Brothers changing their pricing structure if Van
    Heusen shirts go up $10 at the retail level because of a tariff.

    Why do you suppose American shirts cost $100 if they can be made for $6.50, whereas Chinese shirts cost $35 and cost $5.00 to make?

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    #32 InTheLight, Jul 3, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2016
  13. Smyth

    Smyth Active Member

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    If Walmart replaced all their imported shirts with American-made shirts that cost an additional $1.50/shirt, that would cost WalMart millions as they sell millions of shirts. WalMart customers are very price sensitive. Actually, with a little investigation, I found Walmart's cheapest shirts (patriotic t-shirts $4.88) are made in America.

    I don't believe expensive brands of shirts cost significantly more to make because of where they're made. They cost more because of their quality, where they're sold, and, yes, a premium for not being made in Asia.
     
  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    And how did you come to that figure?

    uh huh
     
  15. Smyth

    Smyth Active Member

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    After a little investigation, I found I grossly over-estimated the amount of labor put into a shirt. It's about 5 minutes of labor for an average shirt, not 10 minutes as I offered earlier (high-quality shirts would have a little more labor involved). Even a small tariff could easily make American-made clothing competitive because labor is small fraction of costs (labor costs is the biggest factor in competitiveness between countries). A reduction in payroll taxes, or other taxes, by the tariff amount would keep consumer buying power the same and federal revenue the same.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. Lewis

    Lewis Active Member
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    "Almost 8 in 10 American consumers say they would rather buy an American-made product than an imported one, according to a recent Consumer Reports survey. And more than 60 percent say they’re even willing to pay 10 percent more for it..."
    LINK
     
  17. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    What's stopping them right now?

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  18. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Alta Vista search engine. It rocks.

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  19. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Probably the dumbest question to be asked the BB.
     
  20. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Yeah, well you're living in the 19th century so I'd expect you to want the US to excel at sewing pieces of cloth together.

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