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Truth.

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Carson Weber, Aug 23, 2003.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Carson is saying what he believes to be true EVEN if it is not something another person "would like".

    He is not trying to be politically correct - he is trying to be correct.

    It is not a personal attack - it is what he has been taught and he is relating it accurately.

    I for one - do not call that "protestant bashing" if he is simply stating the facts that he has been given or is simply conveying the logical conclusion to doctrines he has been taught.

    I would rather have open - honesty than political correctness.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    After a session of butting heads together, may I say to you Carson

    NICELY DONE!!

    And I don't understand how anyone who reads the Bible can misunderstand the difference between a priest and a high priest so badly. Is it a Protestant distinctive to distort the typology from OT to NT?

    A high priest in the OT did not deal with personal sins. He dealt with the sins of the corporate covenantal nation through the means of offering YOM KIPPUR. Only a high priest could do this. What is being talked about in Hebrews is the fact that only Christ could establish the Church and make an eternal and continuous offering for Her in Heaven right now.

    Furthermore, you have no proof at all of the abolishment of the mediatorial priesthood as found in the Old Covenant. Christianity is the continuation of Judaism, except that it is in fulfillment in Christ. In the Old Covenant, there were three types of priesthood: priesthood of all believers (which is quite interesting because all those "believers" actually died in the wilderness for their lack of faith), the mediatorial (or exceptional) priesthood ordained to offer sacrifices for the sins of others, and the high priest, who alone offered YOM KIPPUR.

    Tuor, before you go making off the cuff statements like that, why don't you get a history of Jewish theological practices and your Bible and do your homework better? :(
     
  3. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    Singer -- I was going to say it, but Carson beat me to it. Nonetheless, it bears repeating.

    You are still in pagan darkness of mind. You have rejected the means ordained by God by which you are to enter His covenantal kingdom. You are like one of the pagans of the OT who claims to believe in "Yahweh" but who refused to be circumcised. Such a one would not be a member of the covenant kingdom, and neither is an unbaptised person a member of the new covenant kingdom.

    And you can knock off the jokes about "baptism of desire" since it is obvious that you neither understand what that phrase means, nor have any desire to be baptized.

    I will try to remember to pray for you. Forgive me for not doing so previously. You need enlightenment, which can only come from the Holy Spirit, and not Carson nor my postings.

     
  4. Singer

    Singer New Member

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    "and this water symbolizes baptism
    that now saves you also "



    Carson, you can wander in the wilderness all you want with the baptism
    issue, but I personally like the advice from the guy named "Baptist" .......
    (that would be John) in what he said:

    Luke 3:16
    John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one
    mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he
    shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:


    I'm sorry if your teaching doesn't approve of my method of approaching God, but
    then you may want to question your teaching sometime. Maybe I skipped over a
    few of your favorite doctrines on my way to the Saviour, but the baptism of the
    Holy Ghost came nontheless. You should try it sometime.........now THAT
    will get you more than wet !!!

    C.C,

    My succumbing to baptism wouldn't satisfy your eagerness to ''enlighten'' me anyhow.
    Next thing you'd want me to join your church and get all re-baptized . Then
    I'd have to buy myself some beads and maul them over everyday and get on the roster
    to clean the church and make up some sins that would need presented to the sinner on
    the other side of the bars..............no thanks !!

    Baptism by desire isn't the half of it.....you've got a policy of ''salvation by desire'' too.
    That's even more ridiculous.

    You need enlightenment, which can only come from the Holy Spirit, and not Carson nor my postings.

    Enlightenment comes to man when he "believes on him whom he has sent".
    Enlightenment comes when he ''confesses with thy mouth and believes in the heart that Jesus rose
    from the dead". It is the work of the Holy Spirit to bring that light to man.
    The Holy Spirit is not in the business of promoting Catholicism if that's what you're proposing, C.C..
    That is the purpose of the Vatican to do that ! Surprisingly to you, there is no purpose
    in the "ranting and raving and dilly dallying" that is being carried on by those of your kind. You
    are breeding and promoting Catholicism which is not an item of interest to the Holy Spirit.

    Get on the bandwagon guys and adhere to John's advice....seek the baptism of the
    Holy Spirit.

    **Carson's style has changed to include humor. That's good cuz we weren't
    believing him anyhow.
    [​IMG]
     
  5. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    The Holy Spirit is not in the business of promoting Catholicism if that's what you're proposing, C.C..

    He is promoting, using mere men like me and Carson. Your problem is that you have closed your ears and do not wish to even consider the truth.
     
  6. InTheNameOfLove

    InTheNameOfLove New Member

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    If only baptism with water can save us, how did the thief on the cross go to Heaven?
     
  7. InTheNameOfLove

    InTheNameOfLove New Member

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    Oh, and just because I'm not Catholic doesn't mean I'm saved either, right? Whoops, don't go to a Catholic church, I guess the Holy Spirit will just pass me by....hm, no.
     
  8. LaRae

    LaRae Guest

    Creating strawmen does nothing for your credibility.

    The Church does not teach this, it would behoove you to go find out what the Catholic Church teaches BEFORE you make these sorts of statements.


    LaRae
     
  9. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Problem with that, LaRae, is that the Catholic Church apparently teaches exactly what Carson posted...which is where In the Name of Love got their assumption....
     
  10. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Very good Carson. Nobody in this day and age has the prerogative to forgive and retain sins, which Jesus gave to his ministers.

    I don't see Jesus going around to Catholic priests giving them this power. What I see are men who claim to have that power and have the ability to pass along that power to other men.
     
  11. LaRae

    LaRae Guest

    Don,

    Please post where Carson has said this? Obviously there is some sort of misunderstanding going on.

    The Church does not teach what this 'love' person is saying and you can go to any online Catechism and do a search on salvation and it's very clear.


    LaRae
     
  12. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Carson gave a list of things that the church called Catholic believes. I suppose one would have to conclude then that the Church called CATHOLIC is a false church!
    </font>
    • If you choose to die in a state of mortal sin, you will go to hell forever. Amen, sin separates us from God!</font>
    • Jesus was a real man in history Who rose from the dead, and He is alive today, bodily. Granted</font>
    • The only true church is the Catholic Church. NO! the only true church is the church catholic, not the Catholic Church! The difference: The Catholic (Title) Church is headquartered in Rome, the church catholic (universal) is headquartered in Heaven! The Catholic Church is a physical presence in this world alone, the church catholic is a spiritual presence in this world and in Heaven.</font>
    • After your death, you will be judged by Jesus--not the Buddha, Mohammed, Joseph Smith, or, for that matter, any pagan god.True, and not by the Pope nor by Mary the mother of Jesus, nor the Apostles, nor the prophets, etc. </font>
    • Using artificial means to prevent conception is a mortal sin, and is a cancer eating away at the Mystical Body of Christ in America and other western countries.Not if properly used by those lawfully married. All other sexual activity is mortal sin because it is sexual immorality and the sexually immoral shall not enter heaven.</font>
    • Suffering can only find meaning in the suffering of Jesus. ? Suffering is suffering, and it comes from many disorders. Saying that all suffering is meaningful only in light of the suffering of Jesus is to say that suffering that has its root in sin is the result of Jesus! What a false doctrine that is! Jesus is not Satan!</font>
    • Mary was conceived without sin.Mary was conceived in the same manner as all humanity is conceived. Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary without sin! That is the distinction that Catholics do not seem to recognize, Mary is no different than any other human female with the exception that God chose to use her to manifest His only begotten son in the flesh. Having been faithful to God in this one thing, she is called blessed among women for all time.</font>
    • Homosexual acts are an abomination before God. True</font>
    • Abortion is the intentional killing of a human being, and is a scourge on our nation's soil. True</font>
    • The pope is infallible when teaching about faith and morals. No agreement here</font>
    • Right and wrong actions have a basis in absolute truth, and we can know it. Right and wrong are established by God's Law, that is the purpose of the Law</font>
    • We all have free will, and unless our consciences have been deadened, we know exactly when we are committing sin. Initially this is true, but once one becomes hardened to conscience, knowledge of sin becomes significantly less.</font>
    • We are all sinners, and we need God's divine mercy. Thus it is that God Provided us with the Sacrificial Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, established His grace, his Word among men, so that we mere mortals can have the opportunity to Hear the word and Believe. He established a new standard for judgment, FAITH, in lieu of LAW by providing the one who makes the law complete!</font>
    • Baptism changes our souls. FAITH alone changes souls, Baptism signifies the change! One cannot be baptized and thereby be saved! However one can have no experience with the waters of baptism and yet have eternal life!</font>
    • Confession heals our souls. Confession is Good for the Soul, but it is Forgiveness and repentance that heals the soul! Confession is not much different than boasting if not followed up by repentance. </font>
    • Marriage unites our souls. More than the soul, it unites our flesh as well</font>
    • Holy Orders allow priests to save our souls as Other Christs. Jesus SAVES, There is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved! Raising priests to this level is a sin equivalent to Blasphemy! All that any priest, no matter who the priest may be, can do is persuade a soul to believe in Jesus, the Christ and thereby be saved. Priests are not "other christs", for there is but one Christ, Messiah, for all eternity! </font>
    • And children are a gift of God, the fruit of love in our marriages, a means to our growth in holiness, and we should always be open to having one more soul in procreative cooperation with the Father Almighty. This simply is not true, if it were Abraham would not have been faithful and cooperative with God until after Ishmael was born, but it was Abraham's faithfulness that God called Righteousness.</font>
    It seems your theology is lacking young friend.
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews declares an entire change in the "priesthood" NOT just "in the high priesthood".

    This is the falling fo the RC position on priests.

    Again - by failing to see the significance of the fact that the priesthood is abolished - outside of Christ our highpriest and "The Kingdom of Priests" that Peter speaks of.

    ONCE everyone is a priest - the RC notion of seperate priests is obliterated.

    And so EVEN RC historians "admit" that the NT Presbyters "REFUSED to be called priests".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    All are born in sin - all are doomed - with mortal(leathal - 2nd death, lake of fire) sin - fallen children of Adam. All are doomed to hell.

    If you do not accept Jesus - the Messiah - you will pay that price - the 2nd death.

    Jesus was the God man. Fully God and fully man - but "He emptied Himself" (Phil 2) in His incarnation. This was HIS act - NOT the act of "Mary mother of God".

    The Catholic church is a Christian denomination that has much error and paganism incorporated into it over the centuries. But the true church of God is composed of believers from all groups who place their faith in Christ.

    The RCC is simply a product of the evolution of heresy within the Christian church over the centuries.

    That is actually true!

    However Rev 14 points to a time at the end of the age - when "The hour of His judgment comes" and the wicked are still alive on earth.

    From the sacred book of 1Carson chapter 1 vs 12. But not in scripture. Or is it 1Papacy chapter 1?

    Nice "words" - bad logic and totally fabricated.

    Suffering finds meaning in the LITERAL understanding of Gen 1-3. Man REALLY was created in a sinless, peaceful - non-suffering, non-tooth-and-claw environment. ALL suffering and death LITERALLY came when man LITERALLY fell. The Literal - REAL - Choice of the Literal REAL Adam - resulted in the Literal REAL fall of mankind and the REAL introduction of literal - real suffering, sin and death.

    God's way was FREE of suffering, FREE of death. INSTEAD of "creating via death, destruction, starvation, carnage and cannibalism" God created via "Thus saith the Lord".

    Pure fabrication from the book-of-myths written by the Catholic church as it evolved. (The REAL literal form of evolution).

    God's Word says "ALL have sinned ALL have fallen short" Romans3.

    God's Words says that "DEATH spread to ALL because ALL sinned and ALL are from Adam" Romans 5.

    Mary - is a fallen child of Adam - and she HERSELF declares her OWN need of salvation through - "God MY SAVIOR"

    Carson actually told the truth here.

    Lev 18 SHOWS it. Romans 1 SHOWS it. We do not need Carson's word for it- God's Word ALREADY speaks to the point - JUST as it does to man being created in six days.

    Correct again - murder is murder no matter what other name you give it. Carson has told the truth once AGAIN!!

    The pope is not infallible today - and never was.

    Papal encyclicals on faith and morals, and the practices of the RCC have often been full of error.

    However - the Pope DOES speak for the RCC. Those encyclicals ARE the valid representation OF the errors and myths in Catholicism.

    But in saying that - the Pope is not "bound to speak only error" - he can speak truth with error.

    The Popes of history have included both saved - saints and unsaved monsters.

    True - except it is God HIMSELF - God the Holy Spirit that enables fallen depraved humanity to know right from wrong. God "Convicts us of sin and righeousness and judgment" - directly as HE states in John 16.

    More than mercy - we need "salvation".

    And the "WE" of that is "ALL Humanity".

    Mary was "human" and mary was a sinner.

    Wrong. Baptism is an outward symbol - "period".

    There is no "holy water". There is no "magic water". There are no "magic words" for Baptism.

    The "Baptism that NOW saves you" is NOT the "magic water touching your skin" it is "An APPEAL TO GOD for a Clean Conscience". 1Peter 3.

    Error - once again.

    Confession to God - and God ALONE - does NOT heal our soul (nor would your soul be cleansed/changed via confression to sinful man). It is GOD that changes the soul, GOD brings about the New Birth. Confession TO God is the REQUIREMENT He has made - the condition upon which HE will cause "The New Birth" of 2Cor 5 (If anyone is IN CHRIST he IS a New Creation).

    Error again. Holy orders are a myth of the RCC evolved over time. EVEN RC historians "admit" that the NT saints - the NT church leaders - REFUSED to be called priests.

    Truth. Carson has spoken truth!!

    Error! Carson has spoken error - again.

    They are not a means to holiness.

    They are NOT to flood the home - as fast as we can biologically and mindlessly have them. WE are ACCOUNTABLE for what we CHOOSE.

    FOOD is a GIFT from the Lord as well but we are NOT to EAT as much as biologically possible.

    As it turns out - we have free will - and a brain.

    We are to manage our food intake AND manage our homes. That includes not behaving like rabbits.

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  15. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi Tuor, ;)

    Very good Carson. Nobody in this day and age has the prerogative to forgive and retain sins, which Jesus gave to his ministers. I don't see Jesus going around to Catholic priests giving them this power. What I see are men who claim to have that power and have the ability to pass along that power to other men.

    I highly doubt that Jesus would give this authority to the eleven and not give his Church the ability to retain this authority thereafter, with regard to succeeding generations.

    But, hey, if you believe Jesus sent out the eleven just to jumpstart what will turn out to be a Bible study club, I guess you could - with tunnel vision - exclude the retention of this authority among the presbyterate.

    A student of the Early Church will acknowledge that - with open eyes - this authority was indeed held and practiced throughout the Catholic Church from the beginning.

    The earliest Christian writings, such as the first-century Didache, are indefinite on the procedure for confession to be used in the forgiveness of sins, but a verbal confession is listed as part of the Church’s requirement by the time of Irenaeus (A.D. 180). He wrote that the disciples of the Gnostic heretic Marcus "have deluded many women. . . . Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing themselves from the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses" (Against Heresies 1:22).

    The sacrament of penance is clearly in use, for Irenaeus speaks of making an outward confession (versus remaining silent) upon which the hope of eternal life hangs, but it is not yet clear from Irenaeus just how, or to whom, confession is to be made. Is it privately, to the priest, or before the whole congregation, with the priest presiding? The one thing we can say for sure is that the sacrament is understood by Irenaeus as having originated in the infant Church.

    Later writers, such as Origen (241), Cyprian (251), and Aphraates (337), are clear in saying confession is to be made to a priest. (In their writings the whole process of penance is termed exomologesis, which means confession—the confession was seen as the main part of the sacrament.) Cyprian writes that the forgiveness of sins can take place only "through the priests." Ambrose (who baptized and instructed Augustine) says "this right is given to priests only." Pope Leo I says absolution can be obtained only through the prayers of the priests. These utterances are not taken as novel, but as reminders of accepted belief. We have no record of anyone objecting, of anyone claiming these men were pushing an "invention."
     
  16. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Why do you doubt that? When the church was in its infancy many miraculous things occured that do not happen in this day and age. The Bible never states this power was transferable.

    As a matter of fact, there is evidence that miraculous powers were not transferable.

    Acts 8:9-17

    Philip was not given the ability to lay hands on people to confer the holy spirit, even though he had the gift of the holy spirit himself.

    Yes, but a student of the Early Church will also have to acknowldege that the early church fathers were not inspired by God and therefore could be wrong.

    All that means is the the people in power accepted the teachings. Does might make right?
     
  17. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Why do you doubt that? When the church was in its infancy many miraculous things occured

    I doubt that Jesus would have "given this authority without the ability for the Church to retain it" because this authority to forgive sin does not necessarily entail any miraculous signs. There is no hint in this passage (John 20:21-23) of miraculous signs - simply, "Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them; whose sins your retain are retained". How would that be beneficial for starting the Church, while not intended for the rest of the Church in succeeding generations when all you see is a man saying "your sins are forgiven".

    The Bible never states this power was transferable.

    More is assumed than you think. Don't forget that the Gospels were written for Christian churches that were already alive and well - living the Christian life of prayer, liturgy, and charity.

    Yes, but a student of the Early Church will also have to acknowldege that the early church fathers were not inspired by God and therefore could be wrong.

    The examples that I gave you were not of Early Church Fathers teaching their personal opinions but witnessing to the life of the Church. Yes, they could be lying about what was going on all around them, but I doubt that was the case.

    It takes a great deal of blindness to say "Oh but they're fallible - what do they know" and then follow your own blind interpretation of Scripture, marred by your inherent rejection of Catholicism and the Apostolic practice of the universal early Church.

    It's more comfortable to say "Oh, they're fallible" and move on than to face up to the truth that the Early Church was not Protestant and make a substantial change in one's own religious belief and practice in accord with the evidence.

    All that means is the the people in power accepted the teachings. Does might make right?

    No, the acceptance of doctrine is not the efficient cause of the "rightness" or "wrongness" of that doctrine; it contains an inherent evidential power to convince one that it is an Apostolic teaching and practice. While this intrinstic evidential power of these historical facts may not be enough to convince you (and, in all sincerity, I doubt what level would intellectually move you), they have convinced me and numerous of my close personal friends who once stood in your shoes and have since embraced the Church and all of the means of salvation Jesus bled and died on Calvary to merit for both you and I.
     
  18. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi Don

    I'm amused. Carson's tone here is completely different than his usual postings. What happened, Carson?

    I felt like sharing the truth. ;)

    Sometimes, you just feel like saying what's true without beating around the bush and babying everyone with little fluffy bunnies.

    In this thread, I'm just coming out and stating Christian revelation without apologies as the life of Christianity has lived and practiced this truth from the day Jesus Christ began his public ministry in Galilee to today when his vicar, Pope John Paul II, shepherds God's Church with the charisma of a holy saint.
     
  19. MikeS

    MikeS New Member

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    Very good Carson. Nobody in this day and age has the prerogative to forgive and retain sins, which Jesus gave to his ministers.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Then why was it recorded in Scripture? What was the point of mentioning a power that would be lost when the apostles died? Surely God would have known that us dumb Catholics would misunderstand and make a mess of things, right? Or was the the reason? [​IMG]
     
  20. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert New Member

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    I want to see how well you know your Bible (or think you do)

    1. Was the thief under the Old Covenant or the New Covenant at the time of his death?

    2. According to the Bible (hint: the answer to this question is in Romans) WHAT is it that justified men in the Old Covenant?

    3. According to the Bible, how do we show our faith in God (hint: the answer is in James).

    4. Therefore, putting all the above answers together, what is your final answer to your own question?
     
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