1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Two Disparate Rule Books

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Protestant, Aug 10, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,300
    Likes Received:
    159
    Rather than keep us in suspense, please enlighten us as to your personal beliefs.

    I think it rather presumptuous of you to declare 'no one believes this.'

    Do you presume to be the spokesperson for all our detractors?
     
  2. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,543
    Likes Received:
    1,028
    Faith:
    Baptist
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2018
    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well you say that Protestant but then you go on to others things side stepping the clear text from Hosea that God loved his unfaithful wife but didn't force her or change her with irresistible grace to love HIM. So I guess the question to you is why did you do that? Doesn't it seem pretty clear what I said was true?

    Not in the way that you think. Romans 1 reveals with the knowledge of God is within all men. Some choose to suppress the truth but not an indication that all do or will.

    What because the crowd asked for Barabbas? Of course they did but you can't take a snap shot of one moment of time and not consider what was going on. Just the day prior the crowds were praising Jesus where large crowds spread cloaks and palm branches and sang as he entered Jerusalem? Does that sound like they hated him? Of course not.So why did they choose Barnabas? Two ways to answer that? What crowd?

    Surely you know there can be all different crowds of people at different places and different times but granted I can't make a claim some weren't the same without scripture but one thing I can say is the crowd here became duped and persuaded by the religious Pharisees to ask for Barabbas. If they had to be persuaded to do that Matt. 27:20, Mark 15:11 well where is the absolute hate towards Jesus? You want to make it seem like it was there natural inclination and clearly is wasn't. The crowd was moved by fear of the religious leaders.

    What? I never claimed God was going to step in and stop what was going on. Why the insult?

    So what are you saying now? Of course were talking about a useless hypothetical but you're claiming if there was a different Adam then he would have been forced and compelled to sin? What proof could you ever show to demonstrate that? I'd say absolutely none.
     
  4. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2018
    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I'd suggest you've really brought this down to a really base carnal level to define human beings this way. No offense but would you say Jesus doesn't want to marry people with red hair, or people with blue eyes? I mean to say Christ doesn't love all people? Doesn't Jesus love ALL children? What warning did he give to those who would hurt one? Did Jesus ever say don't let this child or that one come close to me? Or did he rather say let them ALL come. Let's be clear on this....adults are merely children grown up. He wants ALL to come to him. Matt 19:14

    Hold it you've added that in there, "at no time-loved by him" When Jesus made his appeal for people to believe and repent THAT IS a manifestation of Jesus loving! You might want to take special note as well that right after he told some they were not his sheep IN THE SAME CHAPTER, John 10:38 a few verses later he STILL encouraged them to BELIEVE which in turn would make them his sheep!

    Yes, because those who make up his bride are the ones who choose willingly to be such. So how does that verse back your position?

    You have no evidence whatsoever that all men everywhere and at all times has not come into compliance with worshiping or serving God.

    Well Protestant you probably could put down a few more verses too but still be misapplying them. Yes I agree men are prone to go after evil but not in a total absolute sense where they can't reason, and make a decision for God after hearing the gospel and freely choosing yeah or nay. To repent is a form of humility and if men have pride full in their hearts God would have no way of getting it out. The Bible says, his grace GOES to the humble. Not the PROUD. James 4 :6- 7

    Don't deny that Christ didn't LOVE us first but that LOVE went to the whole world something of which you want to deny.

    Nope sorry I'd have to say you're wrong there. I have given scriptures about various things but as it comes to what you put down I can just put down where you misapplied them.[/QUOTE]
     
  5. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    8,391
    Likes Received:
    1,133
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Pro, you are all over the place. Maybe actually form an argument by sticking to a couple of premises and trying to draw a conclusion from them so there is something to address other than rabbit trails covered by a smoke screen while you trying to throw every C proof-text you know to cover your entire system and expecting others to want to engage against your meaningless banter?

    I previously addressed part of your argument concerning the typical fallacious claim that I didn't understand your strawman/question begging position claiming that God doesn't fail to save those He pre-determined to save/ and about God's limited love by pointing out that not only did I understand your position but refuted your silly claim in that just that morning I had studied the origins of "your" common argument at it's source, John Owen.

    Again, I have no interest in chasing your rabbits trails through an unstructured argument, or listening to your common juvenile claims that I didn't engage in a scriptural food-fight dance to use scripture against your misapplied attempts to showboat your system with proof-tests, but I'll be glad to share some footnote scriptures from my 13 pages of notes addressing the actual original argument you borrow from John Owen that I had mentioned I've studied if it helps float your boat ;) :


    Christ's intention is clear that He desires that none would perish but all would repent and be saved:

    Eze 18:32

    (32) For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

    Eze 33:11

    (11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    Joh 1:29

    (29) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    1Ti 2:4

    (4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    Tit 2:11

    (11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    2Pe 3:9

    (9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


    God’s purpose in sending Jesus was to save sinners, He dealt with the sins of the world, made salvation possible for all through faith:

    Joh 1:29

    (29) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    1Jn 4:14

    (14) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

    1Jn 2:1-2

    (1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    (2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

    2Co 5:19

    (19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    Joh 3:16

    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Eph 2:8

    (8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


    By making salvation possible to all sinners through faith, God can sincerely provide good news for all the people, if the atonement is limited it is NOT "good News" for most:


    Luk 2:10

    (10) And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.


    Col 2:14

    (14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    Eph 2:12

    (12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    Eph 2:19

    (19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

    When people resist the Spirit:

    Act 7:51

    (51) Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

    ...It is NOT He the one that fails to accomplish to save sinners through the cross, the "failure" is on the person because they chose to remain in unbelief and thus not meet the condition of faith:

    Joh 3:36

    (36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Protestant

    Protestant Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,300
    Likes Received:
    159
    Obviously Rockson is a modern-day Pelagian who willingly turns a blind eye to orthodoxy by denying the doctrine of original sin which pervades all humanity, rendering them the enemy of holiness, godliness and the true God.

    Rockson declares man’s will free to choose Christ, though the perfect test of this blasphemous doctrine resulted in His crucifixion.

    Rockson declares God loves those who never heard the Gospel or the name of Christ.

    Rockson declares God loves all children, even those millions He drowned in the Great Flood or the thousands He commanded the Israelites to kill showing no mercy.

    Rockson declares Christ loves all men, even Judas, a devil. Therefore, Jesus loves devils.

    This is only the tip of Rockson’s theology.

    Who needs delve deeper into the labyrinth of Rockson’s mind?

    Not I.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2018
    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No I'm not so it'd be much appreciated if you'd stop making your false accusations.

    I believe man has passed down to him a sinful nature from Adam. I DO NOT BELIEVE however how you would consider total and absolute depravity in the way that you define it.


    Well Protestant my friend you still haven't answered what I revealed that crowds of people the day before his crucifixion loved him and praised him. You insisted that everyone hated him. Of course man has a will to refuse Christ or accept him but in saying such it's not meaning to say Christ isn't encouraging the sinner to choose rightly.


    You don't know what God has done or hasn't done to increase revelation to people you think have never heard. It's not just a matter of hearing the gospel but calling out to God as he prods the heart to do so. If some reject that then their rejecting LIGHT and revelation they could have received, thus suppressing Gods truth. And there has been testimonies known throughout time far off cultures which did have knowledge of the gospel or Bible accounts before missionaries. You might want to read up on the Sgaw Karen people of Burma, or that Santal of India, or about an Emperor of the Incas who believed all the idols were wrong, and there was only One True God, who existed as a Trinity. What does Revelation 5:9 say? That there will be people from every tribe and nation in heaven.
     
  8. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    25,000
    Likes Received:
    2,269
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We got ourselves another mind-reader!

    This place is teeming with them. Most of them are Calvinists who can state what others believe without even knowing these people. It's amazing!



    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
     
  9. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2018
    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Baptist
    So you think you've scored your great point by talking about Noah's flood....see there! God couldn't have loved those children. Well God does LOVE all children and you'd do well to consider that universal law. If a child even heard you suggest he didn't and it troubled the child you might find yourself in trouble with God. Matt 18:6 Seriously reconsider that position. But lets talk about Noah's flood and the like. I'd suggest you stop thinking in the temporal what you can see. For the reason the children perished in the flood DOES NOT MEAN those children didn't make heaven their home! And it doesn't mean God doesn't love them. What if means is God had to put an end to something.

    When it reached a point where God would no longer be good to allow evil to exist and thrive one more moment and when it's no longer even fair for God to allow children to be born into this world, because they don't have an inkling chance of growing up with proper parents to raise them with the knowledge of God an end of it all must take place. I've suggested some times with granted not a scripture to absolutely say this will happen but I talk about the day where God will say he's sorry. NOT THAT HE DID ANYTHING WRONG.

    This is not a unheard of idea among men.....that something had to be done and they were not wrong to do it BUT it did have an effect on other people. I'm thinking God will say to all these children who went straight to heaven, he's sorry BUT as they will see there was nothing else God could do for the world of things had to be stopped BUT they'll have joy and peace in Heaven forever and a glorious future. Now this may seem strange but NO NEAR as strange as your position that God would take dear sweet innocent children and not only drown them but throw them all into a devil's Hell for that's where you've got to go as your ultimate conclusion in what you're saying. Strong words but you have to admit that's what you're saying. My understanding is that even most Calvinists refuse to believe children won't make heaven their home. As for the Israelites killing and showing no mercy, you might want to read the following,

    WHY was it that God dealt almost exclusive with Israel in the OT? He never seemed to care about the amalakites and jebusites and the rest of the people around Israel, they were never sent prophets or warnings or preachers. hey were just there to be wiped out. God never sent any prophets to the jungles of South America either, He only dealt with Israel (almost) exclusively. From an election / calvinist point of view that makes perfect sense.

    As you said "he never seemed to care" which still leaves room for yes he did take measures to make them aware. How could one say that? Well let's look at their history. Go back to Abraham. The people or culture of the regions had a certain amount of good spiritual activity that was present. It's been said that Melchizedek the priest King of Salem may well have even given Abraham a clearer understanding of God. There was therefore a certain degree of spiritual influence in the land. How much? We don't know but obviously a certain amount.

    Then there was Sodom that had to be dealt with. Scripture says, that Sodom flaunted their sin and did not conceal it and because such they brought disaster upon themselves. Isaiah 3:10 To flaunt their sin and not conceal it insinuates strongly they had the knowledge of God at least in a measure. To me it seems they were probably ones like Paul described in Rom 1: 20 a people who had the truth BUT suppressed it and the same with other cultures of the region. God said to Abraham about 500 years before the region of the promised land was taken over that in the fourth generation the people of Israel would come back (from Egypt) and a strange thing it adds, Israel it seems was held back from deliverance from Egypt because "the sins of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure." Gen 15:13

    That suggests to us...God was being long suffering towards those cultures with maybe the hope that they'd repent? Keep in mind God as being outside of time doesn't mean he doesn't operate and function as if he's limited to time. Also Rahab in Joshua 2:8 had heard of Israel's deliverance from Egypt which had taken place 40 years earlier! That tells us the whole culture knew much about Israel. They knew about their deliverance but also undoubtedly about how God had led them, guided them and provided for them in the desert.

    They most likely also knew of the moral laws and codes that the people had received from God to Moses. These people were not ignorant people. So again to suggest it seems they were just born to be destroyed I think lacks credibility. God bore long with them with the principle that his goodness should lead them to repentance. In fact Rahab was spared and many believe she is found in the lineage of Jesus in Matt 1:5.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2018
    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Baptist
    LOL! Well Protestant who knows what gold and treasure you might have found if you dug a little deeper. Maybe more than you think. Maybe too bad you gave up so soon? :Cool
     
  11. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,760
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We've already covered this, Rockson:

    " For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    21 because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    23 and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    25 who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen." ( Romans 1:18-25 )

    18) All men hold the truth in unrighteousness, and God has revealed His wrath to them.
    19) Now for the reason: That which may be known of God is manifest in all of us. Why? Because God has shown it to us.
    20) The invisible things of God, from the creation of the world are clearly seen. They are understood by the things that are made...that's all of us. There is no such thing as an "atheist", only someone who denies what truth is inherently in them.
    21) Now we go back in time to when mankind knew God. Example, Adam, Cain, etc. We did not glorify God, neither were we thankful...we, as a race, became vain in our imaginations and our foolish hearts were darkened. This is spiritual, not physical.
    22) We professed ourselves to be wise, but instead became fools, from God's perspective.
    23) We then changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into a a corrupt image...similar to that of animals or of men.
    24) Because of this, God gave us over to uncleanness through the lusts of our own hearts, to dishonor our own bodies between ourselves ( sexual perversion ).
    25) Finally, we changed the truth of god into a lie, and worshipped and served what He created, more than the Creator.


    This is not only an indication, but clear condemnation of the entire race.
    Why this escapes your mind, I do not know.


    The text from Hosea:

    " The beginning of the word of the Lord by Hosea. And the Lord said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, [departing] from the Lord" ( Hosea 1:2 )

    Here we see the Lord commanding the prophet Hosea to go and take to himself a wife that was guilty of being a whore, as an example of what Israel was doing to God and His covenant of Law.

    " Then said the Lord unto me, Go yet, love a woman beloved of [her] friend, yet an adulteress, according to the love of the Lord toward the children of Israel, who look to other gods, and love flagons of wine." ( Hosea 3:1 )

    Again we see that God's love, in this book, is aimed at His covenant nation of Israel, not all men.
    To use a passage out of this book and apply it to all men is not taking into account the context.

    In addition, Hosea was a prophet to the nation of Israel, and God was using him to speak to them by example.This has nothing to do with God's supposed love for all men.




    May God bless you sir.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  12. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,760
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Again, we've covered some of this, Benjamin.

    " Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
    31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
    32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye. ( Ezekiel 18:30-32 )

    God is speaking through the prophet Ezekiel to the house of Israel, not to all men. He is imploring them to return to the covenant which they agreed to obey when Moses brought them out of the land of Egypt. He is not speaking to all men here. As I see it, to even quote a passage out of the prophets that is speaking only to Israel, is not taking account of the context and audience.

    " Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live?
    11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" ( Ezekiel 33:10-11 )

    Again, this is speaking to the house of Israel, not all men.

    " The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" ( John 1:29 )

    Did Christ actually take away the sin of the entire world ( each and every man, woman and child )?
    Then there are people in Hell whose sins are actually paid for...and this is not empty argument. If something actually happened at the cross, like this clearly states, then you have a major problem; God will cast people into Hell and charge them for sins that are already taken away by the death of His Son.

    This doesn't state things "potentially", but "actually".

    " For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
    4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" ( 1 Timothy 2:3-5 )

    Again, if world means every single person, then something is stopping Him from accomplishing what He desires.
    God, the omnipotent ( all powerful ) reigns in Heaven
    ( Revelation 19:6 ), and does according to His will among the armies there and among the inhabitants of the earth ( Daniel 4:35 )

    You have a massive contradiction, and one that needs to be resolved if one is to reconcile all of Scripture and take God at every word ( Matthew 4:4 ).
    Every passage you quote where world is defined as "all of mankind", presents this massive contradiction.

    " For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
    13 looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." ( Titus 2:11-14 )

    Again, a problem with who this is speaking to, and what was accomplished. If this is speaking to all of mankind, then Christ's mission failed for most of the world's people.
    But my Saviour doesn't fail...He told me, that His work was finished and His mission was accomplished:


    "I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." ( John 17:4 )
    " When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." ( John 19:30 )


    Again, a context problem with Titus 2:11.
    The book of Titus is written to a believer by the apostle Paul, who was entrusted with the Lord's Gospel and is writing according to the faith of a certain people:
    " Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;" ( Titus 1:1 ).

    In addition, if salvation is only a "potential", then Christ is lying in John 17:4, John 19:30, and any other passage where He states it is finished.
    My salvation is definite, not potential. It is based on God's eternal love for me and those who would believe on His Son for the forgiveness of their sins. I'm not sure what yours is or was, or even what concrete foundation it is based on.

    " But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." ( 2 Peter 3:8-10 )

    Again, context is everything.
    This passage is addressed to the beloved, not to all men.Therefore, God is not willing that any of the us-ward ( the beloved from verse 8 ) perish, but that all the beloved should come to repentance.

    2 Peter 3:9 is speaking about Christ's sheep, not all of mankind.
    If it were, then the Omnipotent God referenced in most of His word is, for some reason, unable or unwilling to save someone.
    Either He saves His people ( the elect ) or He is powerless to save a person.


    The God of "potential salvation" is a failure, and is a liar for claiming to be Omnipotent and His Son for claiming to be finished with the work that His Father gave Him to do.
    The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sent His Son to die for a people, not for all of mankind:


    " but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
    13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." ( Hebrews 10:12-14 )

    So, according to this, He perfected forever them that are sanctified.
    If He died for the sins of all mankind, then they are perfected and sanctified by His one offering...meaning that if any person goes to Hell, it is in direct opposition to God's word as found here.

    Another contradiction, and another place where Christ failed to accomplish something, IF salvation is "potential" for all men.
    The Scriptures clearly state that He actually accomplished the perfection of a people, by stating that He "hath ( has ) perfected forever, them that ARE sanctified, not "will be".



    His blessings to you, sir.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,760
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Except that now, there are more contradictions:

    " And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    11 in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
    12 buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
    13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
    14 blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" ( Colossians 2:10-14 )

    Now there's a major problem, if this is speaking to all men.
    According to this, Christ actually did something, and for a certain people...the "we" and the "us".

    But it isn't.

    The book of Colossians is written to those that have already believed:

    " Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus [our] brother,
    2 to the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." ( Colossians 1:1-2 )


    " As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him:
    7 rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
    8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." ( Colossians 2:6-8 )

    This letter is written to those who have received Christ...not to those who have not.
    To use any passage out of this book that speaks to believers, and apply it to all men is not accurate, and ignores context.
    This goes for Ephesians, Romans, and any other epistle.

    They are not speaking about all mankind, but clearly addressed to believers only, and concern them, again, only.

    For example:

    " But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. "


    8) Breaking it all down, we see that God commends His love towards...believers, not unbelievers.While they were yet sinners, Christ died for THEM, not all mankind.
    9) Much more then, being justified by His blood...there it is, who is justified by His blood? Believers, not unbelievers...WE shall be saved from God's very real wrath, through Jesus Christ.
    10) When WE ( believers ) were enemies, WE were reconciled to God...how? By the death of His Son. Much MORE, being reconciled ( past tense ), WE ( believers ) shall be saved by His life.


    See the problem?
    If every passage is made to apply to all men, then ALL men were actually reconciled to God at the cross...not "potentially". The language is past tense, and addressed to a certain people. contextually.


    So...

    The atonement is Good News for them that have ears to hear... everyone who gladly received Christ willingly, are those to whom it was intended for.

    His Sheep.

    Did you believe on Christ?
    Then you are one of His sheep.

    With respect, what are you objecting to?

    That others who do not believe, never "had a chance"?
    That's not how it works.

    God does, or does not...there is no "gray area" with salvation.
    You were either pardoned ( past tense ), or condemned ( past tense ). One is merciful, the other is Just.

    ...and your Saviour acted on behalf of you and others like you, and allowed Himself to be nailed to a tree...all for YOU.

    I do hope that you understand why He is so precious to those who believe on Him. :Smile




    His grace to you sir.
     
    #33 Dave G, Aug 19, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
    • Winner Winner x 1
  14. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,760
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Spoken to Jews, who had a long history of disobeying the Law, and resisting the Holy Ghost in their hearts and in their minds.
    Like all unregenerate men, they did what was in their nature to do, even though they were bound by a covenant of Law to obey Him.

    As I see it, the Old Testament was written for the believer's admonition, that we should not do as the Jews, who were under the Law, did
    ( Romans 15:4, 1 Corinthians 10:11 ).

    Anything spoken to them as a nation, is to be looked at in reference to a people who were shown the earthly favor of God, and then proceeded to throw it all away...a lesson that any man, no matter how much God reveals Himself to them, is going to behave like the Jews did, until and unless He changes their heart.

    Then God can trust that person to at least willingly desire to obey Him.


    If God fails to save anyone under "potential salvation", then the failure is on God for not doing what He sent His Son to do.

    To be a propitiation ( appeasement ) for God's wrath.

    In addition, there are no "conditions"...as I see it, that's what the unbelieving mind ( or the mind of a believer who hasn't put the time and effort into God's word as much as he or she should be doing ) sees when it initially looks at God's word, and jumps to the conclusion that faith, baptism, etc. are "conditions" to be met...

    "Conditions" that run their course all the way from "simply believing on Christ" to "believing plus ( fill in the blank ) ", to believing plus adding the works of the Law ( Galatians 1:16-21 ).

    They are not.
    They're evidence of the Holy Spirit residing in a person ( Hebrews 11:1 )

    In your quote and in my estimation, you're placing mankind on a pedestal above God, as having a will that is not as corrupt as God's word clearly states that it is.

    Please see Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 for starters.
    To me, it seems that you're making man's will out to be something that it is not...

    Determinist.

    According to what you are proposing and from my vantage point, you appear to believe that man's will is paramount, while God's will takes a back seat to man's, and He then waits for man to "decide" for Him and His Son, after "doing all that He can" to help men to make that decision.



    Benjamin,

    The God that you are proposing is not the Jehovah of Scripture. The God of Abraham, Isaac, Daniel, Jacob, David, Ezekiel, Gideon, Samson, etc. says that His will is done...He never says anywhere in Scripture that His will is subservient to men.


    Quite the opposite.

    " and all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" ( Daniel 4:35 )

    " Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" ( Romans 9:19 )

    " But our God [is] in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased . " ( Psalms 115:3 )

    " Whatsoever the LORD pleased, [that] did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." ( Psalms 135:6 )

    " For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul [it]? and his hand [is] stretched out, and who shall turn it back?" ( Isaiah 14:27 )


    There are a lot more of these passages in His word.
    However, if you choose to dismiss them, then that is your prerogative, sir.


    My God does as He pleases...not as I please.
    That is why I respect Him so much.

    Not even Satan himself can go against God's will ( without being given permission )...but he'd like to convince people that God's will can be thwarted.



    There's a reason that even the devils believe and tremble.
     
    #34 Dave G, Aug 19, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  15. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2018
    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Baptist

    You've already covered it in what way Dave? In a way in which you claim that you're right? Sorry but I've never agreed to that Let's go through it with my comments in blue.


    " For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness (So when did they hold the truth in unrighteousness? After they began doing various things!) 19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:21 because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God,( sound like they could have glorified God ) neither were thankful; (sounds like they could have been but chose not to) but became vain in their imaginations, ( became vain in their imaginations? I thought in how you would put it they always were from birth ) and their foolish heart was darkened. ( if their foolish hearts was darkened clearly means it became darker than it was before.) 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,( didn't say they were fools from birth! No it did not. It says they became fools) and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    Wherefore (and that's the biggie) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    Romans 1:18-25

    And what's wherefore mean? Clearly it means because of this! Because of what? Because they chose not to glorify God! Because they choose not to be thankful! Because they chose to embrace vain imaginations! And because they chose to view themselves wise without God! What happened to them? God gave them up to some pretty negative things yes as punishment for doing what...suppressing the truth! Not before they did them! After they did them! I think you would have it Dave that they suppressed the truth from merely being born. NONSENSE! That's not what the Bible teaches.


    Hold it now! If you're going to claim man became totally depraved from the time Adam & Eve sinned you can't jump ahead and act like well these people were righteous for a while. They either had a degenerated nature in them or they didn't! If they did according to how you view total depravity (not the same as I mind you ) then Adam and Eve, Cain & Able can't want anything to do with God. But they did although their nature had fallen. Yes as a general rule mankind took that trend towards sin and in the days of Noah it finally came to the place of judgement. But there's nothing to say mankind could not have developed a relationship with God similar to what Abraham did years later. No offence but once again your idea of absolute and totally depravity that is in how you view it falls apart.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Rockson

    Rockson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2018
    Messages:
    557
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Baptist


    Hold it now. I've been told over, and over and over by people of your belief that anyone or anything that God loves.....HE WINS OVER. I've been told if God isn't successful in doing such he's a failure and God IS NOT A FAILURE. You would claim God uses irresistible grace just puts it upon those he loves whether they love him or not...and then they'll comply.

    This is not what happened with Israel and neither is it something that happens today, period. God does reveal his goodness which can lead one to repentance but such is not a guarantee. God revealed his goodness to Israel many times and they rebelled. There is therefore no such thing as irresistible grace and it doesn't matter if you are talking about the nation of Israel or not.

    You're keep wanting to say this had to do with his covenant people but that should make my point even further. Surely among those who were his chosen nation they'd have this overwhelming type grace. You can clearly see they didn't. They had freedom of will and choice to do as they pleased which if really what LOVE is all about. PEACE :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    5,149
    Likes Received:
    293
    Two groups of 100 people.

    Never heard of Jesus. Thus unregenerate with no capacity. (rule is regeneration AFTER hearing gospel)

    Group one AGREES to listen to the gospel.

    Group two REFUSES to hear the gospel ever.


    Are we 100% certain that unregenerate group 2 have absolutely NO CHANCE at salvation?


    Did group one BETTER their chance on a godless unregenerate choice?


    Almost sound like hearing the gospel is a good choice for unregenerate.



    Maybe group three is tie them up and force them to hear the gospel?
     
  18. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,760
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree.
    The downfall of mankind in all its glory.


    But they chose not to, and instead their foolish hearts were darkened.

    Exactly.
    A choice that was made, and resulted in consequences.


    Again, the downfall of mankind.
    Now the current condition from birth, then, not so much...but still, sinners from birth after Adam fell.


    Exactly.

    Precisely.
    Now all men suffer the same "fate"...corrupt and foolish, with darkened hearts and minds.


    What "biggie"?
    I've never stated that mankind isn't responsible, or that man didn't or doesn't have a will that they can exercise...only that we are not willing in and of ourselves to be reconciled to the God that we hate...for daring to command us to repent.

    We, as a race, were never righteous except at one point...before Adam and Eve sinned.
    Called "original sin", and it was passed on in the flesh from Adam, and all men inherit the problem.

    "Totally depraved" is what all men are now, and for thousands of years past. It was a process, and it took place in Genesis well before the Flood.



    With all of mankind, He doesn't, because He doesn't love all of mankind.
    With His children, He does.

    Secondly, "people of my belief"? Do you mean those who learn it from a man or group of men, traditionally, or straight from the Bible?

    There ARE two types.

    You're still trying to make salvation a work of man's will, it seems.
    Becoming born again is by God's will, not man's ( John 1:13 ).


    Mankind = Fully responsible for our sin, and equally as responsible for not seeking reconciliation with our Creator.
    God = Fully responsible for saving someone, and fully responsible for reconciling that person to Him by the death of His Son.

    There is no "middle ground" whereby a person can choose God, apart from His causing it ( Psalms 65:4 ), giving that person to His Son ( John 6:65 ), ordaining them to eternal life ( Acts 13:48 ), etc.
    If a person believes, it's because they are Christ's sheep ( John 10:26 ).
    If they do not, it's because they aren't.


    This is the difference between your God, and mine:

    Mine does whatever He wants, and is perfectly righteous in doing whatever He wants. His eternal love is manifest to His children, and His eternal wrath is manifest to the devil's children.

    Apparently, yours is primarily a God of love, which seems to drown out His other attributes...like holiness, righteousness, justice, and the fact that He's willing to show wrath and to make His power known.




    That is why people go to Hell...because of His justice and because He is willing to show His power in judging sinners and casting them into well-deserved Hell fire.

    The reason anyone goes to Heaven to be with Him and His Son, is because of His mercy and grace, not because of their "decision", or their "humbling themselves". They go because Jesus gave them eternal life, after the Father gave them to His Son ( John 17:2 ).


    Yes, we've covered this subject in many posts prior to this...only it seems to me that you're not "listening".




    Peace to you, sir, in this life, and hopefully in the next.
     
    #38 Dave G, Aug 19, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  19. Benjamin

    Benjamin Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    8,391
    Likes Received:
    1,133
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Dave, Dave, Dave… :)

    Unfortunately, it seems you fail to see the bigger picture concerning context that would make this more clear to you and while doing so try to limit God’s love to your pre-programmed views of God's grace being only for a specially pre-selected people. Time and again throughout the Bible “the House of Israel” ego needed to put into its place right up towards the end when John so eloquently put it to those who thought the Word of God was only for instruction to the privileged pre-selected few when he said:

    Mat 3:9-10

    (9) And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

    (10) And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    These self-proclaimed “pre-selected” people were missing the bigger picture of Progressive Revelation, like you, and most Calvinists, in that they didn’t understand the “House of Israel” was a house of salvation through “faith” and not about pedigree or pre-selection.

    This is why it almost becomes comical, if not pathetic, every time I hear a Calvinists try to proof-text 1Cor 2:14 about natural man not understanding while in hypocrisy demonstrating that they themselves do not get the deeper revelations of the spirit of more mature Christians who do understand this point that the Determinists are missing - the full revelation that Jesus has died for whosoever shall believe, those who come to faith, and never was about a pre-determined specially selected privileged and lucky few BUT was and always has been CONDITIONAL UPON FAITH! “Spiritual Israel” my friend, freely believe and you will be saved, Acts 16:11 , the Bible isn’t written to merely a preselect few but Jesus came and brought the light of the WORD into all the world! To His Glory, Amen!

    Now back to the verses I presented:

    Eze 18:30-32

    (30) Therefore I will judge you, (POOF! NO auto-puppet-election! The day is coming that you/they will see that God will truly judge YOU on YOUR faith) judge O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, (see how their imaginary privileged pedigree status is being removed and they are being put into their place as John explains, Mat 3:9, ?) saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. (Ah, but no amount of repentance would do for later, if one has the eyes to see, they will understand through the Progressive Revelation you fail to understand that salvation is ONLY CONDITIONAL UPON FAITH which God will judge in TRUTH, Deuteronomy 32:4.)

    (31) Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Here the “Condition of Faith” is being explained, although not yet to be revealed then but is now (for some ;) ) IF you have the mind of the spirit, that faith must be IN Christ where according to God’s judgment, not predetermination, BUT BY THE CONDITION OF FAITH, one receives a new heart and a new spirit IN CHRIST as per His promise made before the foundation of the world you try to limit.)

    (32) For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, (ALL DIE MY FRIEND, no way to say this is only being said to the “House of Israel”, especially if their “status” was predetermined! Makes absolutely no sense that way!) saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. (Again, if you haven’t got the message yet, understanding Progressive Revelation may un-dim the glass for YOU and THEM that the blood of bulls and goats, Heb 10:4, --- works, sacrifice, --- PEDIGREE ---, never saved ANYONE but people are saved by God’s GRACE on the condition of FAITH – WHICH God WILL JUDGE "YOUR" HEART IN TRUTH! :eek: Deut 32:4 )

    This message isn't only for them, it is part of a bigger picture!


    Again, you continue to try to force-fit the Determinist’s view that “this is speaking to the house of Israel, not all men”, when you deny the simple reading and while you miss the greatness of the wisdom of God. Through His Progressive Revelation that God’s love for the world was so great in that He sent Christ in mercy and grace; God hath prepared for sin by offering salvation through the condition of faith, not of works or pre-selected pedigrees, you should have paid closer attention when John says, “BEHOLD” the Lamb of God, the sacrifice of God, the Wonderful Revelation of God coming to give this light into all the world (for those with spiritual eyes to see and understand this revelation) that IN HIM and only through true FAITH He takes away the sins of the world. Maybe take off the Calvie glasses and read it again:

    Joh 1:29

    (29) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    Every passage where God proclaims this Joy to and “of the world” you must try to contradict in order to fit your systematic presuppositions of Predetermination. O, it is YOUR “massive contradiction” that has been cut off at the roots, it is exposed, but yet you still stumble over this Revelation and try to proclaim it as the Jews spoke and believed – that they were privileged and pre-selected to be in their own special little world.

    Simply, you need to sober up because it is obvious that you’ve missed the lesson:

    Tit 2:11-14

    (11) For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    (12) Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    (13) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    (14) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


    No, the Saviour doesn't fail, and, yes, He finished the work, John 17:4, in that He completed His mission to bring the message to and take away the sins of the world by His sacrifice for whosoever will believe. It seems such a shame that some who claim to understand the truth, and want to become teachers, yet deny the depth of God’s love and His Greatness of it going into all of the world.

    I could only hope that maybe now the context of these verses would begin to have a deeper meaning to you in the true light of the Progressive Revelation of Jesus Christ and show you your error of stumbling just like the Jews, but I won’t hold my breath:

    1Co 2:13-14

    (13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    (14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


    Aww, man, already 2 pages and feel like I’m just getting started but really have better uses for my time than having to explain to someone trying to teach on a message such errors as you as you repeat again and again the foolishness of God’s love being limited and His atonement and promises exclusive to a specially preselected privileged few. You obviously don’t understand the bigger context and will try to dismiss every scriptural instance that goes toward the revelation of how great God’s love is to go into all the world and will continue to stumble as long as you can continue to make your excuses per your Determinist’ soteriological views that YOU had no choice but to believe. But, I will suggest to you that your – unwilling/unfree – ego, that loves to be a teacher and claim that God’s love wasn’t enough for your heart to be persuaded and that only some, only a lucky predestined few, must be forced to have faith. ALL others be damned, will be put in its place soon enough:

    Rom 1:20

    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
     
    #39 Benjamin, Aug 19, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  20. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    5,760
    Likes Received:
    1,322
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In order for my views to be "pre-programmed", they would have had to come from men and institutions of men.
    I can assure you, that they did not.

    I actually read Scripture, and understand it this way.


    In order to repent, one must have it granted to them.
    In order to have faith, it must be given to them:

    " Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." ( Jude 1:3 )

    There is only one "condition" for a person to be saved...one must be elect ( chosen ) of God...God does not let people into a relationship with Him and His Son who try to climb up some other way, other than by invitation ( Matthew 22:1-14 ).

    Parables were meant to conceal truth from those who do not have "ears to hear".
    Do you understand the parable of the wedding?

    It took me a bit, but when I understood election as being God's choice, it all started to make sense.
    God will cast out all who do not have Christ's perfect righteousness imputed to them...and they were invited to the wedding, they did not ask to be there.

    No, I do not.
    Election truly understood results in no one even feeling that way.

    To me, you keep making this charge against me, as if to say that you're not saved, and I am saved...and the reason that I am saved is because I was born of "nobility", and you somehow weren't.

    Again, if you've truly believed on Christ, then you enjoy all the benefits of being foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified ( Romans 8:29-30 ).

    You are loved by the best friend you could ever have...

    Jesus Christ.


    My "ego" has nothing to do with it.
    To me, you're throwing that at me because you're angry with what I say, and you misjudge me as being proud, when that's the furthest thing from the truth.


    Yes, it will be put in its place...at the Judgment.
    All mouths will be stopped, and everyone will declare Jesus as Lord, to the glory of God the Father.




    Benjamin,
    Why does the Gospel I preach offend you?
    Is it because you're trying your level best to get into Heaven on your own merits, or is it because you just cannot comprehend why I am using the Scriptures that I post, the way I do?

    Either way, it puts a very large gap between you and me...one that is not going to go away overnight, IMO.

    I've already been where you are...I'm not going back.
    I see nothing in the "free will gospel" that gives God the glory that He is due:

    All the credit for saving worthless sinners, instead of only partial credit.




    This is my final post to you sir.
    From here on out, I will try to refrain from answering you on anything...to me, your mind is made up, and Scripture, if it cannot be understood "logically", is not something you are interested in, it seems.


    May God bless you sir.
     
    #40 Dave G, Aug 19, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...