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Featured Two good arguments for a Pretrib Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Jan 10, 2015.

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  1. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    He's busy starting 15 other threads.
     
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You speak with disdain.
    If you are going to get any respect among the dispensationalist camp you would be better off to drop the Darby attack (or mentioning him), and leave out this "Parenthesis" church philosophy which most of us have never heard of in the first place. You are the only one that refers to it and tries to force it upon the dispensationalist. If you want respect and debate or discussion with them you should avoid such terminology.
     
  3. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    I am here awaiting a strong refutation of my argument to which I got none.
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Then you are ignorant of dispensational doctrine. Walvoord clearly states that a "parenthesis" church doctrine is necessary for a pre-trib-removal of the church. Read it again!

    Walvoord writes, [Major Bible Prophecies, page 282]:

    I have posted many times the writing of Dr. Thomas Ice, himself a dispensationalist scholar, showing that Darby is the father of the pre-trib-dispensational doctrine. You can believe it or not.
     
    #84 OldRegular, Jan 29, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2015
  5. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Well we're waiting for "two good arguments for a PreTrib Rapture."
     
  6. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318 Well-Known Member
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    Regardless of if Deut. 4:29-30 is talking about the Exile or the millennial kingdom, that has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture. It does not support your pre-trib view.

    Again this has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture.

    Again nothing about the timing of the rapture.

    Still waiting on this
     
  7. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318 Well-Known Member
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    I just gave you one, besides you never finished up your argument since you did not go into the NT passages people presented.
     
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Your problem Evan is the same as all Darby-pre-trib-dispensationalists. You ignore Scripture that refutes your error! Really, simply using the literal interpretation of John 5:28, 29, that pre-rib-dispensationalists brag about so much, buries the belief of all you rapture-ready folks!

    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    Ryrie claims literal interpretation is taking the Scripture at "face value". Now take the above Scripture at "face value" and see if you can wiggle out of a general resurrection and general judgment!

    ********************************************************************

    You do have a very bad habit Evan. You start numerous threads, some ridiculous like the extrovert introvert thing affecting the rebellion of Adam and Eve, and then ignore everything posted on them.
     
    #88 OldRegular, Jan 29, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 29, 2015
  9. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    Not appointed for wrath means the wrath of the final judgment, not some supposed "great tribulation" period.

    :thumbsup:
     
  10. RLBosley

    RLBosley Active Member

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    "Latter days" does not mean the end of the world. My evidence is the copntext. This is in the context of the mosaic covenant established with Israel. If they obey they will be rewarded with prosperity in the land. If they disobey God will drive them out. They disobeyed and they went into exile.

    As Blessedwife pointed out, I'm still not sure how any of this proves anything about the rapture.

    I'm genuinely confused by your reference to Rev 20:4. What does that have to do with anything?

    I really already answered this in my first rebuttal of your original statement. There is 0 reason whatsoever to think that Jeremiah was referring to some future tribulation and a(nother) regathering of Israel during the millennium. It's simply not there.

    Why would it refer to the tribulation?

    OK
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I am not saying if you are right or wrong.
    I could argue Calvinism as Augustinianism beginning with Constantine every time I mention the topic. But it won't get me any favors. It will just turn people off. And that is what you are doing.
    If you want to discuss this topic, discuss the doctrine from the Word and leave the pejoratives at home.
     
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Why is it a pejorative to say that Darby is the father of the "parenthesis" church and pre-trib-dispensational doctrine. And I have not noticed you setting an example when it comes to leaving pejoratives at home.

    I have discussed the Doctrine of the pre-trib-rapture from Scripture but you reject Scripture that clearly teaches a general resurrection and judgment yet are unable to present any Scripture that clearly teaches a pre-trib-rapture.

    Furthermore I have no problem with calling Calvinism Augustinianism since it is my understanding that Augustine taught similar doctrines. However, I believe the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace are Biblical. Frankly I am unable to understand why people have no problem believing God chose Israel but cannot accept that He choses anyone else! Of course I believe the primary reason God chose Israel was simply to accomplish the Incarnation. My rationale is as follows:

    In Genesis 3:15 God gives the initial promise in Scripture of the coming Redeemer. Since,God in His omniscience foreknew the rebellion of the first family we must surmise that the Triune God had already instituted His purpose in the salvation of His elect. That divine purpose instituted in eternity past is called the Covenant of Grace. This initial promise, the initial revelation of the Covenant of Grace, is veiled to say the least and could not be understood without the continuing revelation of God. But God does not leave us without hope. As the Biblical history of man unfolds so does God’s purpose in salvation.

    If the Redeemer was to be born of a woman and that birth was to take place in history the way must be prepared. The Redeemer must be identified with God since He was to reconcile sinful man to God and since He was a man, the seed of a woman, He must be identified with the people of God. It was necessary, therefore, that God call out a people for His Name. Unto that people would be given the oracles of God [Romans 3:2] and through that people would come the promised Redeemer.
     
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    In spite of your opinion, many of don't believe dispensationalism started with Darby.
    In spite of your opinion, and of these facts being demonstrated to you repeatedly, Scofield's dispensational system was more in line with Isaac Watts than with Darby, who of course lived long before Darby. But you won't listen to facts.
    In spite of your opinion, and repeated admonitions, I don't believe in any such "parenthesis church" nor have I ever heard the term until you brought it up on this board. So why "force" me to believe something I haven't. It is simply a false allegation.
    IOW, leave the offensive things alone. If you want to have a discussion about the topic base it on the Word.
    No, I reject your interpretation of the Word. I also reject the "authorities" you provide.
    "God in His omniscience foreknew the rebellion of the first family we must surmise that the Triune God had already instituted His purpose in the salvation of His elect."

    The Calvinist becomes confused here.
    Foreknowledge is to know before time, almost synonymous to omniscience.
    Foreknowledge does not demand a cause. Because God knew before time what would happen does not mean he caused it to happen.
    As I write this post, God is not forcing me to type or write. I do it on my own volition, my own will. He knows ahead of time what I will write, but does not cause me or force me to do it. There is will, and free will at that.

    If you are interested, it is in this area where Calvin disagreed with Augustine. Augustine believed in a free will and Calvin did not.

    God is timeless. He sees outside the boundaries of time. He eternal. He created time for man's sake. Only when the world was created was time created, for then the world began to revolve around its axis and the earth around the sun giving it its seasons.
    We are bound by time. Christ, the alpha and the omega, knows the beginning from the end. Because he knows every thought and decision you will make from the first breath you take to the last breath you breathe he is totally omniscient about you, without causing you to do or think anything. He lives outside of time. He is eternal. I hope you can understand what I am saying.

    Foreknowledge does not equal predestination. It simply equals omniscience. And it is not a cause for anything.
     
  14. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    I do not ignore the threads!!!! What hogwash. Your problem is that there is a rabbit on your front lawn having lunch and you need to go out and chase him!
     
  15. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318 Well-Known Member
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    Then I should be able to look forward to the rest of your argument supporting the Pre-trib rapture. You did say you would get back later with NT verse. Also should I be able to look forward to a response to my response to your argument?
     
  16. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    There is hubris. You arguments aren't good b/c they are weak. And this b/c they are based on arguments of silence. You still have avoided this.
     
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Pre-trib-dispensationalism started with Darby and so did the concept of the Church as a "parenthesis", an intercalation, an interruption in God's program for Israel! See the quote from the link below!

    From: http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/short-history-of-dispensationalism

    Notice that Watts was not a pre-tribber!

    **************************************************************

    From: http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/short-history-of-dispensationalism

    Scofield was a pre-trib-dispensationalist. Darby's problem was that He considered the Church, for which Jesus Christ died, a FAILURE!


    I don't care whether you believe in a "parenthesis" Church or not. But according to Darby above and Walvoord in an earlier post, no "parenthesis" Church, no pre-trib-rapture.


    The only authority I have provided are preeminent dispensational scholars, Thomas Ice and John Walvoord. I did on one post a quote from Scofield's remarks [Original Scofield Bible} that the Song of Solomon was about the love of Jesus Christ and His Church, even though the Church is not in the Old Testament, according to dispensationalism. :laugh::laugh:That remark was removed in more recent versions to make the Scofield Bible comport with dispensational truth!:laugh::laugh:

    You got that one correct.

    You do not understand the foreknowledge of God. And the only thing I accuse God of causing is the Salvation of the Elect!

    You really cannot Know that! You may think you do! {But given some of the stuff you write perhaps He doesn't even know!}

    Not really a problem with me!

    Can you support that assumption about time with Scripture?

    A boy genius! Wow!

    I believe you are way ahead of me boy genius! I am just not in the same league with you for which I thank God!

    You are guessing and boy genius' don't guess. Is it possible I jumped the gun above.
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Your problem Evan is the same as that of all pre-trib-rapture-ready-dispensationalists. You say you believe in the literal interpretation of Scripture yet confronted with Scripture whose literal interpretation destroys your pre-trib-nonsense you ignore it.

    You and no pre-trib-rapture-ready-dispensationalist can present one passage of Scripture to support either your doctrine of the pre-trib-rapture or the "parenthesis" Church. I have been challenging you people for over 10 years and not one has produced such Scripture.

    Now put me on ignore Evan!
     
  19. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Why?? There is no logical reason to put you on ignore and I do not ignore people whom make good arguments. Granted I have not put as much time into posting replies to you as I should have. Probably because I have other things on my mind like my debate with with a certain Christian universalist whom denies hell. Strange my last email he has not replied and knows certainly the scripture is quite clear on Hell.
     
  20. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    I have to be on ignore. Evan has not responded to my charges of his arguments being weak b/c they are arguments of silence. NOt sure what I did to get on ignore either. Anyone want to ask him?
     
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