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Two Questions

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by menageriekeeper, Dec 3, 2004.

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  1. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    I'm getting ready for the Sunday School lesson and two things caught my eye.

    The first is why is Christ's name translated Immanuel in the OT and Jesus in the NT? I have no doubt that one of my smart kids will ask me that. I'd like to have an answer.

    The second doesn't really relate to the lesson but came up because I like to read the scripture around the lesson verses to get some context. In this case the verses came from Isaiah 7:14. It is the next two verses that caught my eye.

    "He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste." Isaiah 7:15-16, NIV

    I understand(or at least think I do) that the references to being old enough to know right from wrong are generalized references that corelate Jesus' age to a specific historical timeframe. I think that the "curds and honey" phrase refers to a time of relative prosperity. But what two kings were defeated during Jesus' early childhood?

    Ya'll talk and I'll be back later to listen.

    If this should be in the Theology forum someone please move it.
     
    #1 menageriekeeper, Dec 3, 2004
  2. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    This is an interesting question, MK, it illustrates an important principle in scripture, namely that prophecy often has more than one application. This passage is referring not only to the nativity, but also to a near-term event that was given to be a sign to Ahaz...

    10 Moreover the LORD spake again unto Ahaz, saying,
    11 Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.
    12 But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
    13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
    14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
    15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
    16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

    This child is seen in chapter 8
    3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said the LORD to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz,

    This guys name is obviously not Immanuel... We can call him 'Baz. So what does this have to do with anything?? Well, as I said there is multiple application to this prophecy. I think that the verses about butter and honey, and refusing evil may have more to do with 'Baz than with Jesus, but I am sure it has some kind of application. However, as to the name... well Immanuel means 'God with us' according to everyone who knows about such things. So I think that in one sense, it is partly fulfilled, in that we currently recognize Jesus to be God, but the Jews do not acknowledge that Jesus is God. However, upon His second coming, in His glorious kingdom, I believe they will call Him exactly what the bible says: Immanuel, God with us. I believe then we will see the complete and total fulfillment of many prophecies.
     
    #2 James_Newman, Dec 3, 2004
  3. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

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    The whole OT is messianic! Since the fall, man has looked with hope until the day of restoration. With each new king the hope flowered that he might restore things.

    So yes this "prophecy" referred to an earthly king - but it looked forward to the day God would send the messiah. Jesus obviously IS the answer to this hope and thus can be seen to "fulfill the prophecy".
     
    #3 Charles Meadows, Dec 3, 2004
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Jesus Christ's name in the OT is mostly translated "LORD" (all caps). In the NT it is Jesus (Greek for Joshua).

    OT verses scatter throughout Isaiah make prophetic reference to the coming Messiah. 7:14 is one. It was NOT fulfilled in its prophetic sense until Jesus incarnate. Most prophecies have dual fulfillment - limited in "real time" and then speaking of Messiah to come.
     
    #4 Dr. Bob, Dec 3, 2004
  5. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Okay, let me see if I understand this right.....

    Isaiah was prophesying about this other coming king, eventually named M---Baz and threw in an extra prophecy about the coming Messiah to say "and the story won't end here". Meaning that God's provision was for now and the future.

    Dr. Bob, is it the same word. I mean is it a direct tranlation from Immanuel in the OT to Jesus in the NT?
     
    #5 menageriekeeper, Dec 4, 2004
  6. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    No Immanuel in Isaiah is Emmanuel in Matthew. Just going from Hebrew to Greek. Same identical word.
     
    #6 Dr. Bob, Dec 5, 2004
  7. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea Active Member

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    Isa. 14:1. Now it came about in the days of Ahaz, the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Aram and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up to Jerusalem to wage war against it, but could not conquer it.
    2. When it was reported to the house of David, saying, "The Arameans have camped in Ephraim," his heart and the hearts of his people shook as the trees of the forest shake with the wind.
    3. Then the LORD said to Isaiah, "Go out now to meet Ahaz, you and your son Shear-jashub, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool, on the highway to the fuller's field,
    4. and say to him, 'Take care and be calm, have no fear and do not be fainthearted because of these two stubs of smoldering firebrands, on account of the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram and the son of Remaliah.
    5. 'Because Aram, with Ephraim and the son of Remaliah, has planned evil against you, saying,
    6. "Let us go up against Judah and terrorize it, and make for ourselves a breach in its walls and set up the son of Tabeel as king in the midst of it,"
    7. thus says the Lord GOD: "It shall not stand nor shall it come to pass.
    8. "For the head of Aram is Damascus and the head of Damascus is Rezin (now within another 65 years Ephraim will be shattered, so that it is no longer a people),
    9. and the head of Ephraim is Samaria and the head of Samaria is the son of Remaliah. If you will not believe, you surely shall not last.""'
    10. Then the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying,
    11. "Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; make it deep as Sheol or high as heaven."
    12. But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!"
    13. Then he said, "Listen now, O house of David! Is it too slight a thing for you to try the patience of men, that you will try the patience of my God as well?
    14. "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.
    15. "He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.
    16. "For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken. (NASB, 1995)

    I seriously doubt that Isaiah was consciously prophesying about Christ.

    [​IMG]
     
    #7 Craigbythesea, Dec 5, 2004
  8. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper Active Member

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    Thank You all for your answers. They were quite helpful. OT prophecy is not one of my strong points and tends to mostly just confuse me.

    The biggest question I had to answer was why it was also correct to spell Immanuel with an E. Thanks Dr. Bob.
     
    #8 menageriekeeper, Dec 6, 2004
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