TWO Raptures of Believers?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Mr. Davis, Jan 20, 2018.

  1. Mr. Davis Active Member
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    Many have heard about the pre-Trib Rapture of the Church in 1 Thessolonians 4. Admittedly, not all agree with it. But, there is second Rapture after the Tribulation in Matthew 24. These "elect ones" see the Lord "coming in the clouds of heaven" "with a great sound of a trumpet" and his angels gather them "from one end of heaven to the other."

    The faithful pre-Trib and post-Trib saints will reign with Christ in his earthly Kingdom.

    The immature, worldly, baby-like, -carnal saints- (perfect only in position), like those of 1 Corinthians 3, and 1 Corinthians 11, will serve the faithful. Perhaps, they will learn to show some humility and become doorkeepers of the faithful.

    Because He is fair, the two groups will have different experiences in the Kingdom.

    This will be a learning experience for me and perhaps for others.
    As "iron sharpens iron," let us begin!
     
  2. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I can understand this...

    Matthew 24:30-31
    King James Version (KJV)

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


    ...being considered as a Rapture event but, the problem we have is that if the Rapture of the Church (even that which is born out of the Tribulation) takes place at the end of the Tribulation when Christ returns, then we have no physical populace to fulfill the Prophecy of Revelation 20. The primary issue being that those who enter into that Kingdom have offspring which rebel against God and join ranks with Satan, both being destroyed at the end of the Millennial Kingdom:


    Revelation 20:7-10
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



    Because the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not revealed during the Age of Law (Romans 16:25-27; Ephesians 3:1-6), when we consider John 3 we understand that Christ taught within the Revelation (Scripture) available to Nicodemus at the time:

    John 3
    King James Version (KJV)

    2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.



    Have you ever considered that when the disciples were sent out to preach, they were sent out to preach "The Gospel of the Kingdom?" They were not preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, because that would not be revealed unto them until the Comforter was sent. So we cannot ignore the first application, which is what Christ spoke to Nicodemus, and that is that no man would enter into the promised Kingdom except he be born again, or, in other words, born of God.

    So going back to a rapture at the end of the Tribulation, if all believers are raptured, there is no-one left to enter the physical Kingdom Christ establishes at His Return.

    The gathering of the Elect at the end of the Tribulation is the gathering of the physical believers who were born again during the Tribulation. Those who were not born again, but fell in with the Antichrist...are destroyed. This is the Sheep and Goat Judgment of Matthew 25. The believers who die during the Tribulation are raised from the dead, and I believe in glorified form, because they reign with Christ one thousand years, or, for the duration of the physical Millennial Kingdom:


    Revelation 20
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

    2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

    3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.



    That they are raised again is defined in verse.5, where "the rest of the dead" are described as not living again until the Kingdom ends. This shows they were physically dead, and raised again. And again, because of their lifespan, it is likely they are physically resurrected in glorified form, though that could be debated as Prophecy speaks of longer lifespans in the Kingdom (Isaiah 65:20).


    Continued...
     
  3. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Agreed, though I see this as the Church of this Age and the Tribulation Martyrs, and that those physically alive live on to populate the Kingdom. The Lord speaks of the destruction of the unbelievers at His Return here:


    Luke 17:30-37
    King James Version (KJV)

    30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

    31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

    32 Remember Lot's wife.

    33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

    34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

    37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.



    Just as in the days of Noah and Lot (Luke 17:26-29) unbelievers suffered physical death, and the destruction, respectively, was complete. The Disciples ask, "Where are they taken?" and Matthew makes it clear that it is their deaths in view:


    Matthew 24:27-28
    King James Version (KJV)

    27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.



    Again, the point is that all unbelievers are physically destroyed, and all believers who physically live through the Tribulation enter, physically alive, that Kingdom promised by God in Prophecy.


    You would have to show me Scripture that teaches this. There is no division among the People of God. While rewards will vary, our fate will be the same, respective to the Age we die in. Provide Scripture that teaches that the unfaithful among believers will serve the faithful in the Millennial Kingdom.


    Need to see your Biblical Basis.


    Agreed, and a lot fum as well. This is one of the most interesting areas of Study, and its relevance as a whole has been overlooked by many.


    God bless.
     
  4. Mr. Davis Active Member
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    Darrell,

    Yes! There is a lot of speculation in Eschatology. Everyone that posts here will need to research their own viewpoint and provide relevant Scripture as you have done.

    The OP was my effort to get the ball rolling.

    More to come!
     
  5. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Great OP, Mr. Davis.


    God bless.
     
  6. Mr. Davis Active Member
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    I want to correct a statement I made in the OP to the effect that the unfaithful would serve the faithful in the earthly Kingdom. They will serve the King of Kings in whatever capacity He so chooses.

    Now, the kingdom of God will not be the same for all believers. Some will have rewards for their earthly faithfulness; others will not. Some believers will be entrusted with certain privileges; others will not. Some will reign with Christ; others will not (2 Tim 2:12). Some will be rich in the kingdom of God; others will be poor (Luke 12:21,33). Some will be given true riches; others will not (Luke 16:11). Some will reign and rule with Christ; others will not (Rev 3:21).

    Privilege in the kingdom of God is determined by one’s faithfulness in this life. There will be equality in terms of our inclusion in the kingdom of God but not in our rank and privilege. The clearest proof of this comes from Jesus’ reply to Peter when he asked the Lord about what he and the other apostles would receive for their sacrifices:

    “ Then Peter answered and said to Him, ‘Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?’ ” (Matt 19:27).

    Jesus answered,

    “ ‘Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.’ “ (Matt 19:28)

    The apostles will have a special position of authority in the future kingdom. You and I will not judge the twelve tribes of Israel. That is a privilege reserved for that special group.
    -----
    This is a review of Dr. Charles Stanley’s, Eternal Security (1990), pp. 126-127.

    https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/fair-use-rule-copyright-material-30100.html

    It's true that normally, copyright law gives authors certain exclusive rights in their work. ... A book reviewer would be permitted to quote passages from a book in a newspaper column, for example, as part of an examination of the book. ... Contrary to what many people believe, there is no absolute word limit on fair use.
     
  7. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Me, I am hoping for a break from the affairs of this world, and hoping to be able to bide my time in Heaven during the Kingdom. Looking forward very much for the chance to speak with Paul.

    Its my view that the Church will perform a ministry similar to that which Angels perform today (and in the past). We know Satan isn't present for most of the Millennial Kingdom (he is released I believe for 75 days prior to the end of that Age), and while we can't say dogmatically about demons, men will be under the same command to believe on Christ and be born again in that Age, and I think this will be a period of time in which it is evidenced that men will sin against God without interference from Satan, Demons, or Angels.

    Anyway, I thought you wanted to talk about the Rapture? I have presented my own view, that there are not "two Raptures" as presented in the OP, but rather just the one for the Church of this Age. We do see the Two Witnesses raptured, but it is doubtful anyone else is, as those who die during the Tribulation are said to be raised again after the Tribulation.



    God bless.
     
  8. Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Think that is is actually a pre trib rapture of the Church, and then the second coming event.
     
  9. Mr. Davis Active Member
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    Maybe...

    Here is REALLY something to add to the fireworks of the OP:

    Darrell suggested the need to have believers on the ground to reproduce.

    Instead of Raptures of both the faithful and unfaithful: two partial raptures, of just the faithful in each.
    It is complicated, to be sure...and, without a doubt, any partial Rapture is controversial among some of the authorities I have checked.

    Unquestionably all believers are saved by Grace. Those to be rewarded in the Kingdom with various ranks and privileges (as mentioned in my previous post) will be raptured; some before the Tribulation and some after. Some of the unfaithful will enter the Tribulation; the rest will be saved during the Tribulation. Since they are saved, they will not take the mark of the Beast. Should they die, they will be resurrected in the Kingdom.

    The unfaithful will re-populate the earth.They will learn new ways.The faithful, will be like the angels of heaven, neither marrying nor being given in marriage.

    Reactions?

    (Later, as in my previous post, I will provide scriptural backing.)
     
  10. Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I hold to the rapture and Second coming as being same event, and would just stay away from Millennium Exclusion, not saying that you are saying that though either!
     
  11. Mr. Davis Active Member
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    Before I continue posting, let me see if I have you right.

    Most teach that a pre-Trib rapture occurs before the Second Coming. (They are separated by the Tribulation.)
    If you believe they are the same event, you are post-Trib, correct?

    There is no Millennium Exclusion. Both the faithful and unfaithful will be in the Kingdom. The faithful, will return to the earth after their raptures. The unfaithful will either enter the Tribulation (and go through it) or some of the saved during the Tribulation, will prove unfaithful and pass through the Tribulation as well. Clear enough?
     
  12. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Not a possibility. Paul does not teach a partial Rapture:


    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
    King James Version (KJV)

    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.



    Those who have died in Christ (i.e., Paul, John, Peter, etc.) are raised from the dead first, coming with Christ because they are now with Christ. Then we which are still alive (physically) are then caught up (raptured).

    That is the entirety of the Church in this Age.

    I have to ask, why do you want to believe that God separates the faithful from the unfaithful?

    But it is not the "unfaithful" said to enter the Kingdom, lol.


    Matthew 25:31-37
    King James Version (KJV)

    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?



    Next we see what happens to the unrighteous:


    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



    God bless.
     
  13. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    If you believe in the Millennial Kingdom then you have to account for those who physically live during that Kingdom. All unbelievers are destroyed when Christ returns and establishes the Kingdom. If the Rapture happens then, there are no physical believers to produce offspring to fulfill Revelation 20, where there is a great multitude of unbelievers who, at the end of the thousand years, rebel against God and join ranks with Satan.

    We then have to deny unbelievers are saved, and that those who are not born again inherit the Kingdom contrary to Christ's teaching in John 3 (...except a man be born again, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God).


    God bless.
     
  14. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    "Millennial Exclusion" is the false doctrine that "the unfaithful" will not be allowed to participate in the Millennial Kingdom.

    That is eerily similar to what you have been saying, hence his reference to it. And I think that doctrine is banned from Baptist Board.


    Scripture?


    Scripture?

    And don't we have to conclude that both the faithful and unfaithful return? If...

    "...Both the faithful and unfaithful will be in the Kingdom."



    Unfaithful Christians will enter into the Tribulation?

    Scripture?


    Scripture?


    Clear, but no Biblical Basis.

    Please present Scripture to support these teachings.


    God bless.
     
  15. Mr. Davis Active Member
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    Mr. Davis said:

    Instead of Raptures of both the faithful and unfaithful: two partial raptures, of just the faithful in each.

    >Not a possibility. Paul does not teach a partial Rapture:

    I think you are jumping the gun a little bit, Darrell.

    Yeshua1 asked me some brief, simple questions which I answered. I am not prepared at this time to present scriptural backing for everything I have posted so far. And when I am, it will be incremental.

    Certainly, I will address your questions and comments. Please be a little patient as I work through my research.
     
  16. Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I see this as when Jesus returns at His second coming, those who are saved at that time will be glorified, and those still laive that are unsaved will enter into that kingdom rule and reign, as Jesus needs to rule with iron rod, as those of flesh and blood still have sin natures in them....
     
  17. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Looking forward to it.

    God bless.
     
  18. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    No unbeliever will enter into the Kingdom when it is established. If you would like to teach that, please present the Scripture to support it. I have already presented Scripture that shows unbelievers are destroyed and sent in eternal judgment when Christ returns (Matthew 25).

    God bless.
     
  19. Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The dead sinners will be held until the GWT event, while those alive at timne of Christ returning are not all destroyed, but allowed into that Kingdom. So will be a mix of glorified saints, and flesh and blood humans in the Kingdom here on earth.
     
  20. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Correct. They remain in Hades until the Great White Throne Judgment:


    Revelation 20:11-15
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



    This passage is a good example of how Scripture does not always have a sequential timeline, meaning, John "sees" the dead, but then it is stated that the dead are gathered after this.



    Only those who are born again during the Tribulation will enter into that Kingdom, as shown in Matthew 25 earlier, as well as Chrtist's teaching in John 3, which has application to the physical (Millennial) Kingdom, because we expect Christ to teach within the revelation Nicodemus would have had at that time. Rather than the expanded we have through the New Testament, particularly since both the Mystery of the Rapture and the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been revealed to us.

    No unbeliever will survive Christ's Return.


    I don't see glorified Saints as "part" of the Millennial Kingdom, though I do believe we will interact with those on earth in ministries similar to that of Angels today and in the past.


    Only Born Again Believers enter into the Kingdom, and they produce offspring which will themselves need to be born again through embracing the Gospel.


    God bless.