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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thjplgvp, Oct 16, 2015.

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  1. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Difficult to do with the limited search function.

    When at it for about 15 minutes now. Found this:

    You keep getting "born again" and "born from above" wrong because you think it is a synonym of salvation. It is a part of the process of salvation.

    I gave you some verses earlier that prove that you must be born again before you can be saved.

    https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/the-knowledge-of-god.67013/page-2#post-1618696

    Found this:

    I personally have spoken with quite a few myself, and one or two on here before they were removed. (I believe one was a Preby and the other - just within the last couple of months, a Lutheran, I think).

    One gentlemen (a moderator at the time) I debated with at another Baptist site.. had stated that a person can be regenerate for years and though probably rare, even for decades before he professed faith in Christ.

    https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/regeneration-before-faith.60492/#post-1469847

    And this:

    No. Regeneration does proceed faith, but it happens so quickly that it is indistinguishable from the whole. I separate from those who believe a person can be regenerate for days, weeks, months, or years prior to their conversion.

    https://www.baptistboard.com/threads/so-you-say-you-like-spurgeon.74427/page-2#post-1794142


    I have had this conversation before with Calvinists on BB, and they have said exactly what I allege--that it is possible a person can be regenerated but not saved for minutes, hours, even days or weeks.
     
    #21 InTheLight, Oct 19, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
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  2. thjplgvp

    thjplgvp Member

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    The Reformed view … teaches that before a person can choose Christ … he must be born again … one does not first believe and then become reborn. … A cardinal doctrine of Reformed theology is the maxim, “Regeneration precedes faith” (Sproul, Chosen by God, 10, 72).

    A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because has been regenerated (Pink, The Sovereignty of God).

    The Calvinist says that life must precede faith, and is logically the cause of faith. Faith did not cause the new birth, the new birth caused faith (Cole, “Which Comes First In Conversion–Life or Faith?”).

    Calvinists put the new birth before faith, since they believe that spiritually dead humans cannot exercise faith and, therefore, need to be born again before they can believe (Olson, Beyond Calvinism and Arminianism, 39).
     
    #22 thjplgvp, Oct 19, 2015
  3. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Yes, but the Bible says:

    John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

    Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
     
    #23 InTheLight, Oct 19, 2015
  4. thjplgvp

    thjplgvp Member

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    Are you saying that believing is conversion and that life is salvation? Or the sealing is salvation and believing or trusting is the giving of life before salvation? If you are going to quote a scripture be kind enough to interpret it for me since we come from two different schools of interpretation and I am not sure how allegorical interpretation works with these verses.

    Thank you
     
    #24 thjplgvp, Oct 19, 2015
  5. salzer mtn

    salzer mtn Well-Known Member

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    I believe regeneration precedes conversion. We are passive in regeneration but active in conversion. A dead man cannot believe but once born of the Spirit he becomes alive to himself as a sinner, alive unto God and then by the faith of Gods elect he believes on Christ.
     
    #25 salzer mtn, Oct 19, 2015
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  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Was Luke talking about positional salvation or permanent salvation (glorification)?
    So one aberration somehow translates into a trend of "many?"

    And the last statement is correct but off topic. The statement is "regeneration does precede faith" not "regeneration precedes salvation." :)

    And I am glad the poster disagree with the previous aberration. That is an example of the vast majority of those who self-identify as Calvinists. :)
     
    #26 TCassidy, Oct 19, 2015
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    What is your point? Where in all those quotes does anyone say "regeneration precedes salvation?
     
    #27 TCassidy, Oct 19, 2015
  8. thjplgvp

    thjplgvp Member

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    Are you serious? Pink clearly states man believes because he was regenerated. I am not a moron please do not treat me as one the word believe means to trust Christ as savior or to be saved and Pink clearly said a man must be regenerated before he can be saved. To suggest other wise is foolish in my opinion.

    Thjplgvp
     
    #28 thjplgvp, Oct 19, 2015
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes, but that is not the issue. We believe because we have been regenerated. But Pink did NOT say "regeneration precedes salvation." That is the claim you made and, so far, have failed to back it up.

    I will try one more time. Salvation IS Regeneration and Regeneration IS Salvation. Your claim was that "regeneration precedes salvation." Nobody here has said that, except you.

    Regeneration is the source of faith to believe, not the result. No person who is an enemy of God can work up some faith or trust or confidence in the God Whom he hates in order to earn his salvation.

    You have the cart before the horse. Faith is the result of our new heart, not the cause of it.

    Ezekiel 36:26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
     
    #29 TCassidy, Oct 19, 2015
  10. robustheologian

    robustheologian Well-Known Member
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    Which is true.

    1 John 5:1 — Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

    Notice it doesn't say everyone who believes is born of God, or will be born of God, but has been born of God. The been shows that regeneration has already taken place.
     
    #30 robustheologian, Oct 21, 2015
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  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Exactly! We either believe what the bible teaches or we don't! The Greek word γεννησαντα "has been regenerated" (or some versions read " has been begotten") is a verb in the aorist tense (aorist is the past tense in Greek conveying a "once for all" understanding), active voice, participle, in the accusative case (case of the direct object), singular, masculine.

    It amazes me how people who call themselves Christians refuse to believe what the bible clearly says.

    Of course, much of this may stem from the anti-intellectual, anti- education attitude of so man Baptists resulting in many pastors who cannot read either Greek or Hebrew so they don't understand the significance of the aorist tense active voice verb in question.

    We believe because we HAVE BEEN regenerated. That is bible. Take it or leave it. Believe it or don't believe it, but that is what God said. Get over it!
     
    #31 TCassidy, Oct 21, 2015
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  12. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

    8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

    8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    This is also from the OT Jeremiah 31:33-34... Brother Glen
     
    #32 tyndale1946, Oct 21, 2015
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