Understanding the 1000yr Reign?

Amazing the gyrations you make to fit every Scripture that touches on eschatology inside these two verses, at a particular point in time, [by the way, the verse says "hour", in the KJV and NKJV ("ωρα") not an "instantaneous event", and the HCSB and NIV render this as "a time is coming", which I think also well expresses the Greek idiom, here], attempting to come up with a schemata, yet can feel so free to assume that "day" and "1000 years" are symbolic, yet "hour" and "year" must represent some "literal" time span. Your "belief" (or mine, in some other instance) (that) "it will be a 'quick work' the Lord will do", does not make this so, in the sense you are intending, nor does it allow for the fact that God has been said to be "working" for many years, in many things, in His providence, (Ex. 14:31; 32:16; 34:10; Jos. 24:31; Jd. 2:7; Ps. 46:8; 78:4; Is. 5:12; 10:12; et al.) yet Scripture, at the same time, also first says God already ended his work and rested from it. (Gen. 2:2-3)

Did God "finish his work"? Certainly, in one sense, namely that of creation. No, in another sense. Contradiction here? No, CONTEXT, here!



How did Jesus 'break the Sabbath'? (He actually didn't, but as they saw it he did, by 'working'.) He was without sin, remember?. As a Jew, under the Mosaic Law, He therefore 'kept the Sabbath day holy'by doing no "servile work in it", or He would have sinned.



There are verses that speak of "cutting short" of time, (Rom. 9:26 - NASB, YLT, WYC, DARBY; Mt. 24:32; Mk. 10:20) but none I know of that use any phrase of "a quick work" in any version I am familiar with, although I do know of a woe that is pronounced on those that ask for such.

Given my 'druthers', I'd rather be taken out of this physical world by the Uppertaker, than by the undertaker. But God's 'druthers' and mine may not be the same. So my body may well get 'planted' in this earth. Christians, as members of the 'church', have been doing this for almost 2000 years. If I do, in fact, pass physically from this realm, before the Lord comes "for his saints" at the rapture (I Thess. 4)(BTW, you, not me, better not use the term "raptured" either. You can't find it in the English Bible, in the 'standard versions', having to do with this subject.) I will be raised out of this earth, as we know it, and yes, later, I will see a new heavens and new earth. Why is this present earth literal", but a "new earth" not literal? You have already said you believed the earth will pass away, etc., from II Pet. 3:10. Why do you not believe Rev. 21:1, which effectively "conditions" this promise of a "new heaven and new earth" on the first one passing away? Why is the second half of the verse "literal" but the first half of the verse "not literal"? Why do you not believe II Peter 3:13 which says - actually, let's look at a bit more of the passage in II Peter 3, for it is one thought.

The promise of the Lord, himself, is that there will be a new heavens and a new earth. Isaiah records this two times, meaning the Lord repeated himself, just so you would know it to be true. (Isa. 65:17 ; 66:22) Peter says this is a specific promise of the Lord, as well. (II Pet. 3:13); And Revelation is specifically said to be Christ's personal revelation (given to God, the Son, by God, the Father) to John. (Rev. 1:1-3,19) Funny thing, somehow I don't see a single book in Scripture written by either EdSutton or Brother Bob, that negates this.

It is not that I at least, am "not satisfied" with a spiritual kingdom; it's that Scripture teaches far more than "just" a spiritual kingdom, which is what you seem to be saying. None of us who have argued - er I mean discussed this with you, to my memory, have denied a "spiritual kingdom", in one sense. [Snipped from my reply, to print]

This is simply not very true. At least two or three, besides myself (although I believe one got a permanent vacation from the BB for something they said, it was not because of this), have given multiple Scriptures, where any reading of the words at anywhere close to "face value", can only be referring to a physical kingdom, of some duration, where the Lord (or Christ or "the Messiah") will "reign". I admit that only Revelation defines this time as 1000 years, just maybe because God had not revealed this time frame before then, you think??

Ed

 

BBob,

What a beautiful day outside! :godisgood: Then there's you to set straight "right off the bat!" :laugh:

It certainly wasn't because He came in victory over their enemies was it Zech 14:4-7. It certainly wasn't because "And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one." Zech 14:9, Zeph 3:9, Joel 3:14-17, Psa 2:5-9. It certainly wasn't because every mountain was brought low, Zech 14:10, Rev 16:18. Get on your knees, repent, and respect the word of God, BBob. You are one of the Lord's worst enemies on scripture's "holy ground!"

You're straining at gnats, BBob.

None who died before the cross was sanctified by the indwelling Spirit. Even their souls weren't justified which is why they waited in sheol/"Abraham's bosom" until the cross before they could be taken captive to heaven. And if that little bit there doesn't convince you that there are phases to salvation that ALL believers must go through, I don't know what evidence will convince you.

Read Zech 14:9, 17 and Jer 23:5-6 again, BBob.

Actually, you've already got it if you are saved and live by the Spirit. It's called a body of "terrestrial glory" in 1Cor 15:40, 45. Get to know your Bible, BBob.

Your eschatology is "frozen in time" if all you take is that one verse speaking about that one time, BBob.

I DO worship literally. Don't you?

skypair

 

No, you can have it your way. God has always allowed that option --- and extracted the cost of doing so from your pitiful life and your eternal rewards, if any.

We are in the SPIRITUAL kingdom. When we are raptured, we enter the physical kingdom but it will be God's kingdom. In the MK, Israel will enter the SPIRITUAL kingdom which will also be the PHYSICAL kingdom of Christ. They are the "earthly" people -- we the "heavenly" people. Their citizenship will be on earth then whereas ours is in heaven now.

Baptism, BBob. Read 1Cor 15:37-38.

Boy, I sure hope I don't get "burned out" on you like TC has! :saint:

skypair

 

Regrettably it is my own recently "derived" paradigm which looks at who is God using to administer the affairs of the earth according to His will. Broadly speaking it was Adam and his descendants until the Holy Spirit was given. For 2000 years He has directed God's affairs but in the MK, it will be Christ Himself. Then, in the eternal New Earth, God will be "in charge." Plus it makes sense from a salvational perspective too. All must come to Christ ("there is no other way given...") and through the Spirit into glory.

Yes, at least as regards Jesus use of the term in the parables of Matthew. Kingdom of heaven speaks of Christ's administration of physical creation, man, while not present in it. It is best laid out in Mt 13 after Israel formally rejected His kingdom in Mt 12. In the overarching "parable-line," the Sower/Son of Man was trying to grow a fruitful crop of WHEAT/Israel (we find this out when the one sown in good soil finally comes to maturity) on his "good soil"/Abrahamic Covenant. Under the law, tares crept in and under the woman, the wheat was robbed from the land and leavened (which is what happens in the tribulation).

The most fascinating is the mustart seed/tree because it doesn't belong in the parable -- appears -- and then just as suddenly disappears. This is the church!

The real wheat harvest into His barn comes at Christ's return AND includes Him resurrecting the hidden treasure from the land (OT and trib dead Israel), resurrecting the pearl from the sea (dead Gentile trib saints), and the fishes with then net (living Gentile nations). And then comes His earthly MK.

The other parables are pretty revealing as well.

The kingdom of God is SPIRITUAL so far as earth is concerned until the New Earth and is basically wherever God is. It was "at hand" or "among us" when Jesus was here -- it can be "in us" when we receive Christ -- it was in the tabernacle/temple when the Spirit hovered over the mercy seat -- it was "with" Israel as fire by day and cloud by night -- it is "with" us when the Holy Spirit takes the word of God and leads the lost into the OT or NT "Way."

skypair

 

I think the best way to answer all three of you is to post why the Furturist doctrine is wrong. All of you are saying the same thing you been saying, to which I feel is not to the upbuilding of God's Kingdom. IMO


"Thousand Year Reign of Christ" is not in the Bible? Neither is the word "millenium"? The "Thousand year reign of Christ" is fiction according to Scripture. It is bred from the doctrines of man, not from the Scripture.

The "thousand year reign" appears nowhere in the books of the Bible, except in this one passage where it occurs six times in six times (Revelation 20:3-8). It is not solid study to build an entire system of beliefs about the end time, and the kingdom on such a symbolic passage. Especially when that interpretation conflicts with other passages of scripture.

Revelation 20:3-8 is the only passage that the so-called premillinialists have as the basis for the "Thousand year reign." It should be pointed out that scripture does not speak of "the thousand year reign of Christ." Revelation 20:4 says, "...and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." It is the souls of those who were killed for God's sake that reign with Christ 1000 years. John saw the souls and not the bodies.

Symbolic?????????????
Job 9:3, "If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand."

Psalms 50:10, "For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills."

Ecclesiastes 7:28, "...one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found."

Song of Solomon 4:4, "…whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men."

Daniel 5:1, "Belshazzar the king made a great feast to a thousand of his lords, and drank wine before the thousand."

Daniel 7:10, "...thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him."
Deuteronomy 7:9, "…which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that…keep his commandments to a thousand generations;"

1 Chronicles 16:15, "Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;"

Psalms 84:10, "For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand."

Psalms 90:4, "For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past,"
Psalms 105:8, "He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations."

Ecclesiastes 6:6, "Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?"

2 Peter 3:8, "...one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

It should be obvious from the above that every occurance of the word "thousand," is not literal but symbolic in the Bible, for a large number or long period of time. Why is it when we go to the book of Revelation many interpret this thousand years as literal? Especially when there is no scriptural to warrant doing so?

Futurists make the same mistake that the Jews who crucified Christ made -- they were not satisfied with a spiritual kingdom; they had to have a literal kingdom. The Truth of the matter is not that Christ will reign for a thousand years in the future, but that Christ is reigning now, and will continue to reign for eternity, not just a thousand years.

We do not have to wait for His Kingdom to come sometime in the future before He starts reigning over our lives, for Christ's Kingdom is here now.

The fact that you make the same mistake as the unbelieving Jews, says it all.

BBob,

 

Outsider,

The notion of 3 kingdoms is grounded in the trinity -- a word that also is not found in scripture -- AND in the notion of man being saved in 3 ways, soul/spirit/body (or justified/sanctified/glorified respectively).

We ALL move from the kingdom of man (lost) into Christ's kingdom of heaven (justification of the soul/OT & NT) into the kingdom of the Spirit (indwelt in our spirits/church age or MK) into the kingdom of God (glorifed bodies/NJerusalem [church] or NEarth [Israel]). I know it is jumbled but that's because Israel rejected Christ and so His kingdom did not operate for them first (Mt 20:16 and Mt 22:14).

skypair

 

At least you admit that Christ was rejected by Israel. But even in that you are wrong, for there was a remnant that did not reject Him.

If Israel rejected Him once, how you know they won't reject Him again? The Jews welcome all your money and donations, protection from their enemies, but they also believe that you are the "dogs and whoremongers" and will never see the Kingdom.

BBob,

 

Prophecy tells me they won't. They will instead "look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him like a son." Zech 12:10 I believe this is when the 144,000 of all the tribes will believe and be sealed, BTW, and it is coming soon post-rapture!!

Let's don't get talking about John Hagee. :laugh: But they're right --- we WON'T be entering into that kingdom. We'll already be in the KoG, NJ. We will have the reigns of the spiritual kingdom through angels, John 1:51.

What did you discover about Jer 23:5-6 and Zech 14:9??

skypair

 

Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Notice that they will ALL hear His voice and they will ALL come forth.

I am sure you had a reason for posting this but it is completely on another subject and does not belong here. I notice you and the other ED, love to post long quotes, which say absolutely nothing concerning this subject.

What in the world does the Sabbath have to do with what we are discussing??

Why is the Kingdom you speak of literal, but after the 1000 years it will be Spiritual?? Do you believe the church to be one of the Heavens??

Yes and all will be Spiritual.
1Cr 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Apparently you believe you will still have your old body when you come out of the grave, not me, I intend to have a Spiritual Body, that does not need a natural Kingdom.

Yes, I believe in the New Heaven and the New Earth, and both are Spiritual. There will not be anything here left, it will all pass away with a great noise.

Scripture teaches that when you come out of the grave, if you have the blood of Christ, you will have a Spiritual body then.

I see you still are not giving scripture, except verses of scripture where you have to put your own spin on it.

Ed

 

Where is the scripture that Christ will reign on earth???


BBob,

 

Jer 23:5-6 and Zech 14:9. How will you allegorize these away?

skypair

 

If you can't give scripture that Christ will reign on earth in the MK, there is not reason for me to spend my time on Jer and Zech.


Jer 23: 5-6
5: Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6: In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Jer 51:10The LORD hath brought forth our righteousness: come, and let us declare in Zion the work of the LORD our God.

This is when Christ came. Don't you even acknowledge that Christ came.

John 1

11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15: John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16: And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17: For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Zech 14:

9: And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10: All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11: And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

1Cr 8:6But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

This also has come to Jerusalem, for the Kingdom is within us and He is Lord over it all, throughout the whole earth.

Rev 3:12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

BBob,



BBob,

 

You're right. You can't be shown anything, can you? When "LORD" is used in connection with "King" in the same verse, that could be anybody, right?

Remind me what a nice day I said it was 2 hours ago.

skypair

 

Zech 14:
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

So, they will only worship the Lord, once a year????

 

Might as well add Micah 4 to that list to be 'explained away'.

Ed

 

Micah 4:
: But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
2: And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

notice it is not the "last day".

Jesus fulfilled this prophecy.

Joe 2:1¶Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand;

Hbr 1:2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Dan 9:16¶O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people [are become] a reproach to all [that are] about us.

BBob,

 

No, Brother Bob.

{Heavy Sigh!}

The worship, just as it was intended to be, at least, with Israel, goes on year 'round. The Feast of the Tabernacles, and the associated worship with that feast, only occurs once a year. Incidentally, this specific 'worship Feast' follows another annual feast, by only five days, and another is only ten days before that. Hence, there are three annual feasts in a 22 day period (Trimpets, Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles), the third of which lasts a week.

And I believe you can still find the Feast of Tabernacles celebrated in Rupp Arena and Heritage Hall, in Lexington, on an annual basis, around the first week of October, by one group. (At least you could observe this annual 'celebration' there, up to a few years ago, by the Worldwide Church of God, as they actually 'built tabernacles' to dwell in, to celebrate the 8 day feast, as found in Lev. 23:34-43.)

[Edited to correct]It appears, on checking, that the WWCoG, having moved much closer towards complete orthodoxy, no longer assembles for the Feast of the Tabernacles, although I easily counted over 35 meetings for this, mostly by 'splinter groups' of the original organization that was headed by Herbert W. Armstrong, that did this for both 2005 and 2007, the two years I checked. There were over 50 in the US alone, in 2005, including the Branson/Lake of the Ozarks area, Myrtle Beach, Panama City Beach, Lake Tahoe, Steamboat Springs, CO and Rapid City, SD (Mt. Rushmore area). In our general neck of the woods, the areas included Lexington (United Church of God), KY Dam, at Gilbertsville and Pigeon Forge.

'Suffering', and 'hardship', you know.

Just also saw some of what you posted. It is completly irrelevant to me whether or not this is, or was fulfilled or not. I am not Jewish, so these feasts, just as each, any and all of the other precepts of the entire Mosaic law (yes, that includes the 'big ten'), never were binding on me, as a Gentile, to begin with. I don't care; it doesn't affect me; I never had it, then. (Rom. 2:14) And I certainly am not going into slavery now, to get it!

Ed

 

Thats the point I was making, its already been fulfilled for years.

The point is that some of the context of Zech is put forth as yet to come and low and behold, if you keep reading it plainly shows it is being fulfilled in the OT.

BBob,

 

Christ preached a very simple message. It was so simple that common people understood and the wise couldn't figure it out.
2000 years later, we have made it so complicated that you have to be a PHD to even come close to some of the things that are being thrown around....

What ever kingdom you happen to be in and what ever kingdom your looking for at what ever time it may happen to appear, either on earth or in heaven, I hope you find it. I will just simply trust in the Lord.

God bless and peace to all!!!!

 

Skypair:

That just is not true, a terrestrial body is a fleshly body. One that both saints and sinners have. If you have a spiritual body, then why do you have to die. Does the Spirit die????

terrestrial Main Entry:
1 a: of or relating to the earth or its inhabitants <terrestrial magnetism> b: mundane in scope or character 2 a: of or relating to land as distinct from air or water <terrestrial transportation> b (1): living on or in or growing from land <terrestrial plants> <terrestrial birds> (2): of or relating to terrestrial organisms <terrestrial habits>

BBob,