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'Unit's' military expert has fighting words for Bush

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by poncho, Mar 26, 2006.

  1. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    Bush's grandfather was around back then Scott and he helped finance that fanatical fascist dictator. Fascism or more appropriately corporatism (government and business combined) as Mussolini called it was looked on quite favorably even in the USA prior to WW2 as was eugenics. Hitler probably got his ideas about racial purity from American and European eugenicists like Sir Francis Galton, Thomas Malthus, Herbert Spencer and others he didn't invent the philosophy himself. Today our own government along with many others are combined with if not controlled by big business. And eugenics has just adopted a gentler kinder face and name, bio-ethics and it is being taught in high schools and universities everywhere.
     
  2. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    Excellent comments, Scott J!
     
  3. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    Someone actually checked it out after Rather made a fool of himself. Turns out that the lady who typed the memos was still alive. She said that the documents Rather was given were fakes, but the the text was accurate. So yes, Bush really did all those things. She also regarded Bush as a "nice young man", but said that everyone was talking about it, and the political pressure placed on Bush's commander.

    He also went AWOL, got busted from flying status for refusing to report as ordered, and then got a mere slap on the wrist, because he had political back-up. His supervisor declined to rate him, because he hadn't even been seen for over a year.

    No one assigned him to just quite coming, or to fail to report as ordered. That was his own agenda.

    Doubtful. He specifically requested to never be sent overseas, and he picked a unit that flew outdated aircraft, which was thought to be unlikely to go. Even then, he went AWOL.

    The majority of Guardsmen and women are proud, conscientious and patriotic. They have nothing in common with Bush.

    The record that will stay with him forever, is the Colonel's secretary saying that he did indeed fail to sever honorably. It will be the record in which his supervisor says he was missing for a year. The one in which the Air Force grounds him for failing to report as ordered.

    That's the record he's got. And those records will be preserved.
     
  4. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    So, exactly what was the source for this “fake” but “accurate” document? Was it a literal transcription, a loose recollection, or just invented for the occasion? Do we now accept this kind of garbage as fact? Do we all get to recreate documents supposedly written 30 years ago and claim they are “accurate” because we want them to be?

    There is no record of the President being AWOL while in the service of his country. Such things are very carefully recorded by the military and even filed with local law enforcement in the areas where the AWOL troop is likely to be located so they might be arrested and returned to the military. But, still no record can be presented. Perhaps Dan Rather, or someone else like him, is working on creating such a record that’s “accurate” but “fake”. The AWOL term continues to be applied by some in hopes it will become accepted as fact.

    He moved to a different state to pursue political activities. So what? He is a politician! He changed units and changed duties. Pay records show he continued to serve. Those records didn’t come from Dan Rather’s files so does that make them “genuine” but “inaccurate”?

    Lot’s of people, even in the regular components requested various assignments, stateside or in Europe, and only a few – perhaps “fools” like me – actually asked to be sent to Viet Nam even if we really didn’t have a choice. So what? That had nothing to do with whether or not those ordered to go went or not. There’s no reason to make the irresponsible implication that the President would have refused service in war if ordered. Very few people did that.

    You’re correct about the majority but incorrect about President Bush. They have everything in common with one another and all those who served with him, before him, and after him. Most who’ve served don’t get too hung up on the “little” issues of military service that seem so important to some. Your implication that the President was not “proud, conscientious and patriotic” is irresponsible. His reasons for serving – whatever they were – don’t matter. He did his part. He did a service the country needed.

    The record will stand that Dan Rather – bent on fabricating the news as he thought it should be – attempted to use forged documents to “prove” something he believed happened. The record will stand that many people motivated by a desire to discredit the President will continue to spew forth their lies, exaggerations, and implications.

    Meanwhile, the President has his record of military service including his Honorable Discharge for having completed his six year obligation.
     
  5. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    The secretary who typed the original memos said the "information was accurate" but the documents themselves were not the ones she typed. Someone apparently knew about the scandal, but couldn't get the original papers, made copies and passed them on to Rather. Shame on Rather, and shame on Bush.

    The lady who typed the documents in the first place verifies the information. So yes, first-hand knowledge is sufficient.

    Since she typed the originals, she's the authority on what she typed.

    Barbarian observes:
    He also went AWOL, got busted from flying status for refusing to report as ordered, and then got a mere slap on the wrist, because he had political back-up. His supervisor declined to rate him, because he hadn't even been seen for over a year.

    There are two documents that show this. The first is the orders busting him from flying status for failure to show as ordered for a physical (Bush knew that the AF was starting to examine nasal passages for cocaine use, but we aren't sure why he refused to appear) The second is his OER, in which his supervisor documented that he had been absent from his assigned duty for over a year.

    Indeed they were. That is how they ended up on the net.

    Barbarian observes:
    No one assigned him to just quit coming, or to fail to report as ordered. That was his own agenda.

    So he happened to have an assignment, and was never relieved of that assignment. BTW, a group of veterans in Alabama offered a substantial amount of cash for anyone who could show that Bush ever showed at the Guard unit he says he switched over to. So far, no one's been able to show that, either.

    Ya think?

    The commander in Alabama wrote that he doesn't remember Bush ever being there. Neither does anyone else. And no one gave him permission to change. He just left and never came back.

    They show he continued to draw pay. However, neither his assigned supervisor, nor the unit he supposedly switched to on his own recalls him being in either place.

    The genuine ones include the one in which his supervisor says he hadn't been seen at his assigned station for over a year, and the one that shows he was busted for not reporting as ordered.

    Barbarian on the notion that Bush would have served honorably:
    Doubtful. He specifically requested to never be sent overseas, and he picked a unit that flew outdated aircraft, which was thought to be unlikely to go. Even then, he went AWOL.

    Kerry did. So did a lot of people. Just pointing out that Bush's lack of moral fiber was consistent.

    There is the fact that he refused to serve even in a safe Guard slot. And it's not just the testimony of the woman who typed the memos.

    Barbarian observes:
    The majority of Guardsmen and women are proud, conscientious and patriotic. They have nothing in common with Bush.

    It's all true. The are official documents which make it very clear. Bush went AWOL when it suited his purpose, he used political pressure to escape all but the mildest punishement.

    You misspelled "accurate."

    His reasons for not serving honorably are obvious.

    Barbarian observes:
    The record that will stay with him forever, is the Colonel's secretary saying that he did indeed fail to sever honorably. It will be the record in which his supervisor says he was missing for a year. The one in which the Air Force grounds him for failing to report as ordered.

    That's the record he's got. And those records will be preserved.

    We're not talking about Rather. We're talking about the lady who was there, and typed the memos, and says that the information was accurate.

    Matter of public record. So are the documents busting him, and the one in which his absences are documented.

    That's how it is.
     
  6. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    There are days when I wish I had never voted for George Bush (twice). There have been lots of threads which I have criticized him. After rethinking the situation, the fact is, despite what we think, he is the President for two and a half more years. He has made some bad mistakes that have wounded his presidency which he probably will not recover. The man still needs strength from God to lead during the rest of his term, and already handicapped, we should be praying for him to receive Divine guidance instead of stupid advice from advisors. I am not defending Bush, but two plus years is a long time, and he needs all the prayer he can get. These are not normal times. Decisions are tough to make.
     
  7. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    Quite so. I sincerely hope he does better in the last two years. But I'm not putting on rose-colored glasses to fool myself about his lack of patriotism and character.
     
  8. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    You're repeating yourself.
     
  9. emeraldctyangel

    emeraldctyangel New Member

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    Nor you with them.

    The majority? All of them Mister G - ALL of THEM. It would be nice if once, you would choose to speak with some honor of those who stand between you and those who wish to end your existance.

    Thank God that He kept a watchful eye over my brothers and sisters in our National Guard here. He brought them all home safe just this past week! Praise Him.
     
  10. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    Barbarian observes:
    The majority of Guardsmen and women are proud, conscientious and patriotic. They have nothing in common with Bush.

    Sorry, you're wrong. I served honorably, and did not go AWOL. I was never disciplined for failing to report as ordered. I obeyed the lawful orders of my commanders. All of these are ways in which the majority of Guardsmen and I differ from Bush.

    Yeah, the majority. There's always a few bad apples, but Bush was an exception, thank God not the rule.

    Nope. For example, when I was stationed at a SAC base, I supervised the reservists on their weekends. One of them didn't show one weekend. Turned out he had been arrested for several rapes. Like Dubya, he was not representative of the men and women in the Guard.

    Then you should speak with some honor of me, unless you were born after 1978, when I left the service. I already pointed out that the majority of them have nothing in common with Bush.

    How about you?
     
  11. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    Good for you regarding you clean record! Some people make it through the service without even any minor discipline. Some - some really good troops - do get in a bit of trouble, others do things wrong but don't get caught, and others get caught but are given a break by their commander considering all circumstances.

    But, once again, I must point out that there's no official record of President Bush having been AWOL while in military service. Why do you keep repeating that false allegation? I don't really know all the details of the President's service - and I know you don't either - but I've seen no evidence supporting the allegation he was AWOL at any time nor that he failed to perform the duties assigned to him.

    While in the service, did your commander ever make a report of an airmen in your unit being AWOL? Do you recall the procedure for doing that and to what agencies that report was given? Are you familiar with the applicable code of military justice and the authority of the superiors over the President at the time and places he served?

    What does this person's alleged conduct have to do with that of President Bush? Even if the President did miss some drill - which his pay records of the time imply he did not - certainly that doesn't place him in the same category as a person who was arrested for rape. AWOL is not equivalent to a felony crime under non-military law.

    The thing I don't understand here is the endless quest to discredit everything President Bush has done or is doing no matter what facts have to be distorted to accomplish it. That's the spirit in which Dan Rather excelled until it caught up with him. Why do this? Why not just say what it is the President is or isn't doing now as President that you agree with or don't? At least that wouldn't seem like cheap shots at the details of someone's past that can't really be proved.
     
  12. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    It helps if they are "special." One such officer was caught shoplifting in the BX. He should have been severely punished, but his commander said he had "been under a lot of stress." And he was the son of an important politician.

    Other than his supervisor documenting his unauthorized absence for an entire year, and an order busting him from flying status for refusing to appear for a physical.

    Would you like to see the documents demonstrating these facts?

    I know several of them. The AF keeps records a long time.

    He was assigned to fly airplanes for the TANG. Explain to me how he performed that duty by being absent without leave for over a year. How did he perform that duty by refusing to take a physical, (which made him unfit for duty).

    I was on active duty, and the rules for me were slightly different. I was under the UCMJ. Bush was under the Texas Code, specifically the section Texas Code of Military Justice. If you do a search on "Texas Code" you can find it. You'll find that it defines AWOL to include just leaving and not returning for a year.

    Barbarian observes that it's wrong to say all Guardsmen are patriots of good character:
    For example, when I was stationed at a SAC base, I supervised the reservists on their weekends. One of them didn't show one weekend. Turned out he had been arrested for several rapes. Like Dubya, he was not representative of the men and women in the Guard. ...

    If you'll look above, someone said that I had dishonored Guardsmen by saying that a majority of them (rather than all of them) were honorable.

    There's that little problem of his OER. His supervisor says he hadn't even been seen for a year. The good news for Dubya was that they kept sending his pay.

    You missed the point, which was that the other fellow was very wrong to say that all guardsmen are of good character. Most of them are. Some, regrettably are not. Bush's offenses, while deplorable and unpatriotic, were not equivalent to rape. Nor did I say so.

    That would bother me, too. As you might know, I've said he did a good job as governor, and I gave him credit for handling the recent discussions with India in a remarkably competent manner. Credit where credit is due. On the balance, he's amoral, he's not competent, and he's done grave damage to America. But to insist that he never does anything right, that's unrealistic.

    I wish no one did. People like that are no better than those who support Bush loyaly, even now that we know so much about what he's done in office.

    I've been told that Bush is a changed man. But as his pretending that he didn't know who authorized the Plame leak shows, he hasn't changed very much.
     
  13. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    Galation, I agree with and support Emeraldctyangel on this. My impression is that you do not speak with honor about those that have served unless they happen to share your political viewpoints. That's why certain spokesmen are heroes for you and the rest just don't count. I could be wrong about that but that's the impression I've gotten from your postings.

    I respect your past service. I also respect the past service of other veterans including President Bush and many others. The "many others" even includes Senator Kerry whom I certainly didn't want as President and whom I don't respect for his conduct after his service such as his participation in VVAW. Never the less, he did serve this nation and I have nothing bad to say about his service even in light of some of the questions about it. President Kennedy is another one that comes to mine whom I didn't care for politically but whom I most certainly did respect as a veteran.

    I just don't like cheap shots taken against any veteran's honorable service because, in most cases, I don't think those taking them have enough information to know, without a doubt, that their allegations are anywhere near correct. If there are some real facts of misbehavior, criminal conduct, or dishonorable conduct then I think that should be addressed by due process of law. If it's proved then I have no problem calling it whatever it may be. If it's not proved then it's just rumors or trash talk.

    The political viewpoints of veterans - including the many well known spokesmen - are certainly debatable and I have no problem disagreeing with any of them. Some of them don't have perfect records themselves but certainly they contributed far more than any such imperfections would make any difference in the value of their service. Their political viewpoints and commentary of national policy regarding our military actions are however open to debate and disagreement. I have no problem stating my opinions about that!

    I also particularly respect the present service of soldiers like Emeraldctyangel and intend to do all that I can to support them by supporting the causes to which we've committed them to serve on our behalf. I was born long before 1978 but you can count me at her side on this one. No offense, but somehow, I seem to relate more to what that soldier writes than what you do.
     
  14. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    Yes, and so do local law enforcement agencies where AWOL reports are sent. I ask again, where is the official report stating the President was AWOL at any time while in the service?

    I was Regular Army and also subject the federal UCMJ and, during my time, was very familiar with it. I checked both the Texas and Georgia military codes way back when all this first came up just to be sure I understand the rules. Where is the record of the charge from Texas or Georgia of the President being AWOL?

    I've commented on all this in past threads. There's no point in going over all that again.

    I can't say he never does anything wrong - who doesn't - and I can't say I agree with all his policies. However, I don't believe he's amoral, incompetent, nor that he's done grave damage to America. Those, of course, are your views and the reason why it's so important to you to discredit him in any way you can.

    Here's you give yet another example of twisting the truth. The latest news doesn't reveal that the President authorized the release of Plame's identity. It claims - not yet proved one way or the other - that he authorized the release of specific classified information to a limited extent. If that's true there's nothing wrong with it since he is empowered to decide what is and what is not classified.
     
  15. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    Then you are also misrepresenting what I said. I indicated that the majority of them are honorable and patriotic people. Never mentioned anything about their politics. That's a complete falsehood.

    I don't have many heroes, because men are weak and often fail. I do, however respect certain men and give their opinions more weight. And there are republicans and conservatives among them.

    Maybe, like the impression you got about my respect for Guardsmen, it was a matter of seeing what you wanted to see.

    Sorry, I can't respect a man who failed to serve honorably. Simply walking away from his duty was not honorable, even if he had enough influence to get off lightly.

    Unless the Air Force is lying, Bush did not act in an honorable manner. Normally, when an officer's supervisor documents on the man's OER that he's been missing for a year, they call it "desertion."

    As is your right. I sincerely hope that soldier learns to be a little more careful about blanket statements. Most guardsmen are honorable and patriotic people. Bush isn't fit to shine the shoes of the vast majority of them.
     
  16. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    Barbarian observes:
    I've been told that Bush is a changed man. But as his pretending that he didn't know who authorized the Plame leak shows, he hasn't changed very much.

    (Barbarian suspects that tapdancing is about to commence)

    Not what I claimed. You could get work as a WH press secretary.
     
  17. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    (Barbarian suspects that tapdancing is about to commence)

    Not what I claimed. You could get work as a WH press secretary.
    </font>[/QUOTE]What then was your implication?

    Hey thanks! Perhaps I'll apply!
     
  18. Dragoon68

    Dragoon68 Active Member

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    He probably wouldn't want you to shine his shoes either.
     
  19. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    He probably wouldn't want you to shine his shoes either. </font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Dragoon68! [​IMG]

    Isn't it nice that we live in a country where we are allowed to talk so derogatory about our leaders.....

    I would have been interested in knowing what Saddam would have done to you if you posted something about him and was a citizen of Iraq--pre-Iraqi-Freedom. :eek:

    ...and I doubt Saddam would have allowed you to shine his shoes either. :D
     
  20. The Galatian

    The Galatian New Member

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    Barbarian on Bush going AWOL:
    Bush isn't fit to shine the shoes of the vast majority of them.[/quote]

    Perhaps not. He didn't have to stand for many inspections, did he?
     
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