Universal Church and Landmarkism

In linguistics semantics is a good thing. It is simply the study of meaning. Since the NT was written in koine Greek, in order to properly exegete it we must use Greek semantics.

I've looked at every single use of the Greek word ekklesia, "church," in the Greek OT, the Septuagint, and I don't find a single symbolic usage such as those who believe in a universal church advocate. That is a proper use of linguistic semantics.

 

Remember that when Paul taught about unity, he was writing to local churches. He wasn't teaching unity to all local churches, but unity within the particular local church he was writing to. His first epistle to the Corinthians is a good example of that. It was brought to his attention of the several problems that the church was having. He writes his letter addressing each problem that the church had. The letter was very specific to that church. That is why we find information on the abuse of tongues in that church and only there. It was a problem in Corinth and not in Phiippi or Ephesus, for example.

We have unity in our church because we all agree not only to our statement of faith (which most here would agree to), but also to the constitution. If you are not in agreement, not in unity with the church that you are in, then you should find one that you are.

Furthermore, in Paul's day, there was no internet, no Facebook, no telephone, no rapid way of communication at all. Travel was difficult. To speak of world-wide unity was absurd to most people. What was the world? They never traveled out of Palestine, and most of them probably never traveled out of the city that they were born in. They had no need to. Travel was difficult, arduous, and time consuming.

 

He's better off than that. He is in the presence of the Head of the church, and is fellowshipping with those who make up that great General Assembly. He is part of that great number gathered around the throne, worshiping the Lamb.

 

In Matt 16:18 Christ used it in a general sense of universal if you please. And in Acts 8:3 Luke used it in a general sense.

 

Jesus Christ proclaimed...

"Upon this Rock (faith in Him of course) I will build my Church".

If he meant local churches, He would have said "Upon this Rock, I will build my *churches*, plural. But He didint say that. He said "Church" singular.

In addition to that very clear support for the truth of the "Universal Church", we have this truth...

Christ said...

"...and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it".

The gates of hell most certainly HAVE prevailed against some local churches. Actually, probably multiple thousands of local churches have ceased to be, for various reasons. Power struggles. dissention. Leaders who were false prophets, etc etc etc.

Yet the gates of Hell will never, and have never, prevailed againt Christs universal church.

We are here.We are here century after century after century after century.

The universal church...and the local church...thank God for both of them!

Aic

 

More accurately, look at Darby's translation. This is what he said:

And *I* also, I say unto thee that *thou* art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)

You say: "If he meant 'assemblies', He would have said, "Upon the Rock, I will build my "assemblies", plural,...He said "Assembly" singular."
--His assembly at that time was his disciples, those that followed closely with him. On the day of Pentecost there were 120, and to that number 3,000 were saved, all in the local assembly that had gathered or assembled in Jerusalem. And the Lord added to that assembly daily such as should be saved.

Jesus also used the word "assembly" in Matthew 18.
But if he will not listen to them, tell it to the assembly; and if also he will not listen to the assembly, let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer. (Matthew 18:17)
--In this case Jesus is giving instructions about church discipline to his disciples. The "local church" or assembly is not even in existence yet, but Jesus has given them instructions anyway about how to deal with discipline within the assembly. There is no such thing as an assembly that never assembles or cannot assemble. It is a contradiction in terms.
In addition to that very clear support for the truth of the "Universal Church", we have this truth...

Notice also how the word "church" or "assembly" in these verses are used in a generic way. If I make the statement, "Man has a spirit, but animals don't."
What man has a spirit? Dick? Tom? Larry? Does that include women as well? What man?
We all know that man in this case the word "man" is used in a generic sense to refer to all men. There are some cases in the NT where the single noun "church" is used to refer to all churches, just as it is in the above example. It is used generically.

And *I* also, I say unto thee that *thou* art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)
Christ refers to His Assembly.
For other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:11)
--Is Christ the foundation of the Church, the absolute rock on which it is built. This is what that verse refers to.

but if I delay, in order that thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God's house, which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:15)
The assembly is first the pillar of the truth. It upholds the Word of God, the truth. There is no other organization that is ordained to do this. God has ordained the local church with the Great Commission and the preaching of His Word to uphold His Word, not only in their own community but all over the world.

Second, the assembly is the base (or ground) of the truth. It is the foundation on which we build. We build upon the truth, solid doctrine, faithful teaching of the Word of God. Without that the church cannot stand.

Yes, local churches faithful to the Word of God are here century after century throughout all ages. An assembly that never assembles is fiction.

 

AIC you said;

really? then when Jesus has John write in revelation 2,3 he should have told him to write to the 7 .....church? not 7 churches???
looks like they had different addresses also,as in more than one.

AIC......where does the universal church serve the Lord's supper? Who are the deacons of the universal church? How does the universal church exercise church discipline? Where does the universal church baptize new converts?

We could do this all night.

I do not think you understand the term
The gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

Mandym...

OF COURSE! Absolutly. The universal church is a beautiful and very scriptural concept. Dont let anyone talk you out it. They are stuck in their little myopic view of Gods church. It is sometimed called "churchianity", and it is a detriment to "Christianity".

Of course their isnt.

Sure do.

But there is always hope. Just keep on sticking with what you know to be true, and kindly share truth when you have the opportunity, and let the chips fall where they will after that. These are brothers and sisters after all, not enemies

God bless.


AiC

 

Who suggested they were?

 

Iconaclas....

In multitues upon multitudes of places. Too many to count.

I couldnt begin to number them. Wonderful, isnt it? They are all over this world.

In many many different ways. Sometimes through Gods leaders and pastors, or, sometimes God takes care of it Himself. (He does it better than anyone else, btw.)

There are lots and lots of places people can be baptized. In a church building, in a river, in the ocean.

Hope that helps. :wavey:

 

Umm...I dont think anyone. Did I miss a post somewhere where someone did?

Sometimes I get in a hurry. :godisgood:


Aic

 

The sentence I bolded, I want to address. Are you stating this is past tense, meaning it in a way the DoG Brethern mean it? I do not believe the UC has assembled yet. Here's a verse to chew on:

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

God adds to His church daily, all who He saves from their sins. This church is Jesus' body, His Bride, of which He is over. So this Church is ever expanding, taking those in who come to Him with a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

So, in essence, this UC hasn't assembled yet, it still exists in that it contains all of those who He has saved, whether they be baptist, pentecostal, SDA, CoC, etc.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

Since I can find no place in classical or koine Greek where ekklesia is used in a metaphorical sense, my position is that in Matt. 16:18 Christ used it in a generic sense.

Again, in Acts 8:3 the usage is not a universal sense. The context in v. 1 clearly shows that the local church at Jerusalem was meant. Verse 3 has a definite article before ekklesia in the Greek, meaning the church already mentioned in the context, the Jerusalem church, not a universal church.

 

Indeed.

KJV Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.​

Ephesians 2

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:​

The Church of the Firstborn has two locations: heaven and earth.
The component in heaven has no mixed multitude, pure, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, no tares.​

They, together with the born-again members of the local churches on earth, comprise the Church of Matthew 16:18.​

Christ has only one bride.​

Ephesians 5:23
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
...
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
...
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
...
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.​

True, to the local churches on earth is given the Great Commission and rules of church polity which are not needed for the assembly in heaven.​

Just for the record and FWIW, I don't like the phrase "Universal Church" or "Invisible Church".
Simply "The Church" is my preference when speaking of the body of born-again believers apart from the local church where they assemble.

HankD​

 

I'm not willing to concede any of those things you mentioned. But I am willing to try to find a way to unite believers.

 

The universal church is not "symbolic" in any sense. It may be metaphysical in the sense that it is made up in part by souls in heaven, and is a spiritual body, but in no way is it "symbolic". It is just as real as the local church, in which the true believers make up the other portion of it.

 

Aic......yes, it helps to show you are not understanding what this thread is dealing with.

 

Yea looking back at it again I have to agree.

 

Except one... If the use of ellkesia in the NT is ONLY for the local congregations ADDRESSED BY THAT WRITING, then the entire NT is not for us, and we may as well toss it.

We KNOW that the NT is for us -- local congregations that are part of Christ's Church universal, that's why we still hold to what it teaches! Think about the ramifications of what you put forward before you make statements that nullify the entire Word of God to this or any other age.

 

If what you say is true then nothing written in the OT is applicable to us today, not even the Ten Commandments, for they are all written to Israel, not us.