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Universal or Local?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by garpier, Jun 29, 2005.

  1. TCassidy wrote this: "Actually, if you will read what they were saying in context they were saying the church was universal, not that there was a universal church"

    You have a problem with what was actually written (by the antenicean fathers) because what they wrote was "catholic church" ("universal church") not "the church is catholic." What they wrote is what they wrote. Spin doctoring simply cannot erase the fact that they wrote "catholic (universal) church" when they were referring to all Christians corporately.

    TCassidy also wrote: "I have traveled all over the world and found cars everywhere I went. The car is universal, but that doesn't imply the existance of a universal car."

    That's because you are trying to reconcile in your analogy a material thing (cars) with a spiritual thing (universal church). As usual, most of our analogies fall flat at some point, and yours does very quickly.

    An analogy that does a little better (but is in no wise perfect) is the Army in WWII. The Army consisted of many units scattered all over the globe, and yet there were a number of different "Army's" within the Army.

    There are the local, visible, assemblies called Churches; and there is the body of Christ corporate, which is also called the Church.
     
  2. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    The body of Christ---a corporation?

    And the local church is "cranking out" an endless stream of "saved " souls--who have "said that prayer" and "walked that aisle".

    To be sure, this is where the world of religion is today--but this is not the Bride of Christ.
    She is every true assembly.

    The concept is simple: there is only one Holy Spirit; yet He indwells every New Testament Church. Does that mean there is one universal church? No! They are going to all the world--preaching the good news to every creature--until Jesus comes again.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  3. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    First: Jesus Christ is not a polygamist. The Bride of Christ is the universal Church, the total number of the redeemed through all time. :D :D :D

    Second: The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 writes of the Church in Section VI as follows: “The New Testament speaks also of the Church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.” :D :D :D
     
  4. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    The New Testament Church and the Redeemed from all ages, the assembly which has not yet assembled, are not the same. Israel is not in the New Testament Church. John the Baptist is not part of the NT Assembly either. All the saved are not in the assembly. The NT Assembly is joined by baptized believers--it is a work--it has nothing to do with being born from above.

    Refer to I Cor. 3--the wood hay and stubble. There are some saved people--in the wrong assembly.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  5. Bro. James: do you understand the use of the word "corporate" as opposed to "corporation"?

    If the body of Christ is "every" NT church, then the body of Christ is "all" NT churches, and can be rightfully, and scripturally, called "the church."
     
  6. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    Corporate is an adjective. Corporation is a noun. The concepts herein implied are similar to diocese and archdiocese which are gross errors in ecclesiology.

    There is no hiearchy, board of whatever, or any other ecclesiastic entity which governs the New Testament Church. She is totally sovereign and answers to the Lord Jesus only.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Don't know whether you profess to be Southern Baptist or not but you obviously disagree with the Baptist Faith and Message, and incorrectly at that.

    I agree that Israel is not the NewTestament Church but Spiritual Israel is one with the New Testament Church.

    The Baptist Faith and Message correctly writes of the Church as follows: “The New Testament speaks also of the Church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

    Is it corect to say that you accept the false doctrine of dispensationalism?
     
  8. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    "The Baptist Faith and Message" has nothing to do with conventions and boards. Obviously, I am not in alignment with the SBC or any other entity outside the pervue of the NT Assembly.

    "The Faith and Message" of those truly Baptistic can be traced to the shores of Galilee, when Jesus started calling out His assembly. See also Jude 3.

    This believer played "church" for thirty years before Jesus called him out of bondage.

    Dispensational? Not sure what you mean by that. I dropped out of seminary before we got to that discussion. Please elaborate.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Darby/Scofield
     
  10. TexasSky

    TexasSky Guest

    TCASSIDY - How did you get the greek to print?!?!?! (You're my new hero now.)
     
  11. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    Darby and Scofield--

    Never read after anyone called Darby. I remember being warned about the theology of Scofield contained in the margins of his chain reference bible--do not have a copy.

    Did some reading about dispensations today. Some people speak of seven. Some have other numbers. I reckon I see two major and several minor periods which could be called dispensations perhaps. The major two would be: Old Covenant and New Covenant. One concerns Israel, the other The Church(gentiles), both of whom are saved by grace through faith, BTW.

    In a way the Gentiles kind of got in by "default". Jesus came unto His own, but they received Him not. He knew they would reject Him: "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord". Mt. 23:37-39. Sounds like a dispensation in these verses.

    Jesus said He has other sheep which were not of the Jewish fold (gentiles)--they too will be brought into the fold. This is being fulfilled even today. When the last sheep is brought in we will go to the next phase of God's plan and purpose. His is always in control, never having lost control.

    I am not into dispensations.

    Even so, come Lord Jesus.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  12. exscentric

    exscentric Well-Known Member
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    You may not be into them but you is in one [​IMG]
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Bro James

    Glad to hear you are not dispensational unlike most folks on this Forum. It is my belief that God deals with mankind through covenants, the primary covenant being the Covenant of Grace.

    The Covenant of Grace constitutes the basis for the salvation of the elect of God through Jesus Christ, the mediator of the Covenant, the only mediator between God and man [1 Timothy 2:5]. The Covenant of Grace is perhaps best understood as an eternal covenant between the members of the Godhead which includes the following elements:

    1. The Father chose a people to be His own;

    2. The Son agrees to pay the penalty for the sins of all those the Father gives Him so that none are lost; and

    3. The Holy Spirit agrees to apply the work of the Son to those chosen by God.


    It would be incorrect to think that this Covenant of Grace was preceded by a proposal of terms by one person of the Triune Godhead followed by deliberation prior to acceptance or rejection of the proposal by the other persons of the Triune Godhead. God is One and the nature of the Godhead is such that perfect harmony, in fact, unity of thought must exist within the Triune Godhead.

    Holy Scripture is the story of the outworking of the Covenant of Grace in time and history. Though there is one Covenant of Grace [and many subsidiary covenants] there have been two primary administrations of the Covenant, one before the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and one after His death and resurrection. The first administration as recorded in the Old Testament dealt in types and shadows of things to come [Colossians 2:17, Hebrews 8:5 and 10:1]; the second administration, as recorded in the New Testament, presents the spiritual reality of that which was promised. This second administration was instituted by the death of Jesus Christ [Hebrews 7:14-28] and is the fulfillment of the Old Testament promise of a New Covenant [Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:6-13]. The elect of God have, since the fall of Adam, received the blessings of the Covenant solely through the Grace of God.
     
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