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Using drama in worship, ministry and the life of the church

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by tenor, Sep 11, 2007.

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  1. Seasonal pageants

    26 vote(s)
    56.5%
  2. Sketches in worship - comic or serious

    26 vote(s)
    56.5%
  3. Dramatic readings in worship

    29 vote(s)
    63.0%
  4. Monologues in worship

    22 vote(s)
    47.8%
  5. Liturgical dance/movement

    16 vote(s)
    34.8%
  6. Mime or pantomime

    14 vote(s)
    30.4%
  7. Dinner Theater - outreach or fellowship

    28 vote(s)
    60.9%
  8. Sketches for fellowship times

    26 vote(s)
    56.5%
  9. No drama should be used as part of a worship service

    11 vote(s)
    23.9%
  10. No drama should be used at all

    2 vote(s)
    4.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Paul also quoted Aratus and others in Acts 17:28. Is that an endorsement of pagan philosophy? In the same way it's an incredible leap in logic to find an endorsement of theatrics in the quotation of a proverb also found in Thais.

    That it's a direct quote of Menander is also an unsubstantiated assumption. In fact, it's more probable that it was a common proverb that Menander himself put in the mouth of one of his characters. It sounds a lot like a companion of gluttons disgraces his father, Proverbs 28:7. I'm sure if we had access to the Library of Alexandria, we could find all kinds of ancient literature echoing the same sentiment.

    But to find there an endorsement of an unhallowed method? Not even close.
     
    #81 Aaron, Sep 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2007
  2. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Of Paul's "quotation" of Menander:
     
    #82 Aaron, Sep 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2007
  3. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Lookie here! Someone who thinks like I do!

    Emphasis mine.
     
  4. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. This is my own take on worship:

    a. The NT counterpart of the Hebrew word used predominantly for worship is proskyneo, "to kiss toward." This word is only found in the Gospel narratives, Acts and then in Hebrews as a quote from the OT and then it is used freely in Revelation and is more restricted than say latreuo.

    b. The other word that is translated worship is latreia/latreuo, capturing the idea that all of life is worship.

    2. So with the use of latreuo in the didactic epistles governing the concept of worship, when a missionary takes the gospel to Africa and the native people there want to beat their drums and dance, there is nothing wrong.

    3. They must not be made to conform to our forms of worship.

    4. We must ask ourselves why is proskyneo, the principal word for worship, used so freely in the Gospel narratives and Revelation, but not in the epistles? What is being conveyed here?
     
  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    If that were truly the NT paradigm, wouldn't one find something to that effect in the writings of the Early Fathers?
     
    #85 Aaron, Sep 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2007
  6. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. On what issues should the Patristic writers to be sought?

    2. Have we forgotten their many hermeneutical mishaps?

    3. Are we to seek all of them or some of them? Where do we begin?
     
  7. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    When I read that 43 % of the people here think "Liturgical dance/movement" is acceptable it is little wonder the church is in the weakened and compromised position it is in today. I am grateful for the exceptions to this view that are represented in sound and mature congregations.
     
  8. tinytim

    tinytim <img src =/tim2.jpg>

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    While I didn't vote that Liturgical dance/movement should be used, I am at a loss for finding a scripture that would condemn it...

    Please show me where it would be wrong from Scripture... if not, then it would be acceptable. IMO
     
  9. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    Such a view disregards the ecclesiastical doctrine thoroughly covered in the Scriptures and exhaustively studied and taught systematically by qualified and serious men of theology. It fails to take seriously the issue and the implications and simply seeks to try and sound clever and contrary, IMO.

    Show me where the Scriptures promote this as the means and method of corporate worship and instruction for the church. I can lead you to the repeated admonition to teach, preach, sing, worship through giving and pray throughout the N.T. and the patterns established both in the early church and historically within the church of the nature of liturgy reflecting that of Christ. I cannot and neither can you provide any such event dignified and presented as acceptable corporate worship or as a form of instruction within the church that is taught in Scripture.

    The church that teaches and preaches can point to the Scriptures that implores them and example this. The church that sings hymns and spiritual songs can point to the Scriptures that implores and examples this. The church that instructs through teaching/preaching can point to the Scriptures that implores them and examples this. The church that worships through giving to support those laboring in the Word (the Pastor(s)) can point to the Scriptures that implores them and examples this. And these examples and directives are not casual or few but often.

    It is incumbent upon those wishing to impose new and foreign polity and practices, to prove from Scripture that they are valid imperatives or exampled methods of corporate worship and instruction from Scripture.

    Simply stating that because they are absent of commentary one way or another in Scripture therefore acceptable is not just wholly inadequate but a rather dangerous practice and theology.
     
    #89 Alex Quackenbush, Sep 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2007
  10. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    You tell me. If in your dictionaries you are finding definitions from which you are extrapolating doctrines that were not taught by those closest to the publication of the Scritures, how can we be sure of your scholarship?
     
    #90 Aaron, Sep 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2007
  11. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Hear! Hear!:applause:
     
  12. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. The Patristic writers taught infant baptism.

    2. They taught baptismal regeneration from John 3 and Titus 3.

    3. Must I go on...
     
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Allright then. Forget the Early Fathers. Try John Gil, Charles Spurgeon, John Bunyan or Arthur Pink (All of whom, by the way, considered the Early Fathers generally authoritative). For us to have confidence in your scholarship, we would expect corroboration of your conclusions in a universally accepted commentator of old.
     
  14. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. Yet Gill, Spurgeon, Bunyan were all Baptists and didn't subscribe to infant baptism nor baptismal regeneration.

    2. I'm sure that Gill et al all gleaned from the Patristic writings, but they must have gleaned wisely, with the Scriptures as the sole authority.
     
  15. theBryan

    theBryan New Member

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    There seems to be a common theme to the reasons given for why we should use drama in our worship services. Outreach. There’s lots of talk about how the modern medium needs to be used to connect with the modern man who might come into our churches and how people have been able to use drama to bring people to the Lord and minister to an unsaved world. While I don’t doubt that drama (and modern music for that matter) are quite effective in attracting an unsaved audience, the question (if I remember right) was “Should we use drama in worship?”

    Worship, by implication, is for those who already believe. I’m presuming here the term “worship” is being used to describe a typical Sunday morning service. We can certainly worship no matter where we are but I wouldn’t equate a Sunday morning worship service with a prayer meeting, Awana, outreach programs, or various other activities the church might be involved in. So I wonder then, why do we need drama in a worship service? It is my humble opinion, that the systematic teaching of scripture would be what the redeemed would find most beneficial.

    It just seems to me that the modern church is more interested in worshiping in the manner which pleases man then the manner that might please God. Now I’m sure no church leader would admit to such a statement, but I almost never see a defense of the matter start with “This is how God would have us worship because of this verse or this example from scripture”. It’s always (seemingly) about reaching the lost in the service and witnessing to people in ways that they are most comfortable with. That, or church leaders will point to the number of new parishioners they’ve had once they implemented the drama program. But it's not about the numbers....right?
     
  16. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. If the Early Father are generally authoritative, Why aren't we baptizing babies as Baptists? Why aren't we teaching baptismal regeneration like so many of them taught?

    2. Or do we underline "generally" and therefore consider them in error on Pedobaptism and so on?

    3. Sola scriptura, my brother.
     
  17. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    The point is that a NT paradigm you say is tucked away in a Greek word would have been recognized by the Early Fathers and other commentators of old, who generally needed no dictionary on their desks to translate Greek or Hebrew. So the question is, do you have scholarly corroboration for your conclusions?
     
  18. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. I see the worth of the Patristic writers, but they are not my authority.

    2. For example, there's no mention of mechanical instruments of music in worship by the Fathers; Should we throw out our instruments because the Fathers didn't mention them?

    3. When we're talking about the Fathers, we have to consider where they lived:

    a. Were they in the West? If so, they would have to learn Greek and Hebrew like everyone else.

    b. Were they in the East? If so, they would have to learn Latin and Hebrew.

    c. Jerome, who did the Latin Vulgate, had to be taught Greek and Hebrew.
     
  19. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    The Early Fathers not only mentioned musical instruments, but almost with one accord protested their use in Christian worship. But that's beside the point.

    I asked you long ago to forget about the Early Fathers. Okay? Again, no more on the Early Fathers. Not one more word.

    What of the later, universally recognized Baptist expositors I mentioned? Do you find corroboration in any of their teachings for your conclusions? This is important, because no Scripture is of any private interpretation. It means the same thing today that it meant 300, 1000 or 2000 years ago. So if your conclusion that the use of latreuo in the didactic epistles allows Africans to beat their drums and dance in Christian worship, this would have been recognized long ago by those more knowledgeable in the biblical languages than we are.

    So, again, without another word about the Early Fathers, do you find this in historic Baptist thought?
     
  20. jshurley04

    jshurley04 New Member

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    Church Drama



    I have been in a few services where the preaching has been a joke. I was at a preachers fellowship once where all one fellow preached on were the evils of people doing things that he didn't like, they offended his personal opinion. Some guys are simply jokes in the pulpit.
     
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