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Using drama in worship, ministry and the life of the church

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by tenor, Sep 11, 2007.

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  1. Seasonal pageants

    26 vote(s)
    56.5%
  2. Sketches in worship - comic or serious

    26 vote(s)
    56.5%
  3. Dramatic readings in worship

    29 vote(s)
    63.0%
  4. Monologues in worship

    22 vote(s)
    47.8%
  5. Liturgical dance/movement

    16 vote(s)
    34.8%
  6. Mime or pantomime

    14 vote(s)
    30.4%
  7. Dinner Theater - outreach or fellowship

    28 vote(s)
    60.9%
  8. Sketches for fellowship times

    26 vote(s)
    56.5%
  9. No drama should be used as part of a worship service

    11 vote(s)
    23.9%
  10. No drama should be used at all

    2 vote(s)
    4.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. tenor

    tenor New Member

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    I find the shift in this discussion interesting. I never expected this to become a discussion of preaching vs. drama. This was never intended.

    Drama can be an effective teaching tool in worship and in outreach. It can help drive home a point in a sermon. It can help set up a sermon. It can be used as an item of praise and enhancement to worship. It aids those who may be visual learners

    It does not replace preaching, teaching, singing, etc. It is also a means of giving as the dramatists give of their talents to the service, ministry and worship of God.

    As with most things, there are some here who support its use and those who do not, which is what I expected when I posted this OP. It is not effective for everyone. There are certain styles of preaching I can't abide and they are not effective for me.

    Thank you for this lively discussion.
     
  2. theBryan

    theBryan New Member

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    I think the greater question that's been discussed isn't so much "can" but "should". All sorts of practices "can" be used by churches for outreach, to enlighten, enhance or entertain. The real question is what "should" be done and what is the scriptural model we have to base our decisions on?
     
  3. tenor

    tenor New Member

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    If it helps some people learn. If it helps some deepen their walk. The, yes it should be used. It does not need to an either/or situation. How are we absolutely certain that some of the early apostles did not use this? There is much we don't have recorded.

    Even though it is not mentioned, it is also not condemned, therefore usable.
     
    #103 tenor, Sep 18, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2007
  4. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. How can that be beside the point when you are the one who appealed to them as authoritative to begin with?

    2. You said to forget about the Fathers but then you went to Spurgeon and others to still prove the authority of the Fathers.

    3. That's the RC understanding of that text; what catechism do you have in mind?

    4. It is already being done, so I don't need a recognized baptist expositor to sign-on it for it to be accepted.

    5. We're talking about the global impact of the gospel.

    6. Even right here, we have different flavors in our worship: traditional, contemporary, blended and son.
     
  5. Dale McNamee

    Dale McNamee New Member

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    Using Drama in Worship,Ministry,& the Life of the Church

    Hi All !

    I voted for: Dramatic Readings in Worship,Liturgical Dance/Movement,
    Dinner Theatre/Outreach,Sketches for Fellowship Times.

    Regarding "Dramatic Readings in Worship"...My church uses a book: " Public Reading of Scripture" by Clayton Scmidt as a guide in training the readers at the church.

    The book carefully explains that reading dramatically means expressing and communicating the emotions contained in the Scripture passages being read.

    Saying "All You Peoples Clap Your Hands..." in a flat,monotone,"dignified" voice doesn't quite express the joyous nature of the passage. :laugh:

    As for "Liturgical Dance"...All of the churches that I attended in the past as well as my current church,have used it as an offeratory piece from time to time,not every week. The dances are beautifully choreographed and really do communicate the message of the song being danced to.

    Dinner Theatre can be a really good way to do outreach,along with more "traditional" approaches and having a "sketch" performed during fellowship is fine as well.

    In Christ,

    Dale
     
  6. Dale McNamee

    Dale McNamee New Member

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    Dear TC Greek,

    You wrote: "
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aaron
    The Early Fathers not only mentioned musical instruments, but almost with one accord protested their use in Christian worship. But that's beside the point.


    1. How can that be beside the point when you are the one who appealed to them as authoritative to begin with?

    Quote:
    I asked you long ago to forget about the Early Fathers. Okay? Again, no more on the Early Fathers. Not one more word.

    2. You said to forget about the Fathers but then you went to Spurgeon and others to still prove the authority of the Fathers.

    Quote:
    What of the later, universally recognized Baptist expositors I mentioned? Do you find corroboration in any of their teachings for your conclusions? This is important, because no Scripture is of any private interpretation. It means the same thing today that it meant 300, 1000 or 2000 years ago.

    3. That's the RC understanding of that text; what catechism do you have in mind?

    Quote:
    So if your conclusion that the use of latreuo in the didactic epistles allows Africans to beat their drums and dance in Christian worship, this would have been recognized long ago by those more knowledgeable in the biblical languages than we are.

    So, again, without another word about the Early Fathers, do you find this in historic Baptist thought?

    4. It is already being done, so I don't need a recognized baptist expositor to sign-on it for it to be accepted.

    5. We're talking about the global impact of the gospel.

    6. Even right here, we have different flavors in our worship: traditional, contemporary, blended and so on. "

    Excellent response, Bravo !!! :thumbs: :thumbs: :applause:


    In Christ,

    Dale
     
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    I corrected your mistake concerning the Early Fathers and musical instruments. That was beside the point.



    No, I went to Spurgeon et al because you got hung up on the Early Fathers. I merely mentioned their esteem of the Early Fathers as an aside.



    It seems to me to be a sound understanding, the RC notwithstanding. Are you saying here that John 3:16 can mean something today that it didn't mean when Christ uttered it?



    Which being interpreted meaneth, "No, I have no scholarly corroboration for my conclusions, I'm using a hermeneutic based on contemporary practice to arrive at my conclusions." You could have just said that without the tour of Robin Hood's barn.

    Peace! :type:
     
  8. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. Which turned out to be a cafateria approach: YES on No instrumental music, but NO on infant baptism and baptismal regeneration, for ol' Spurgeon.

    2. John 3:16 at this point is totally irrelevant.

    3. Per 2 Pet 1:20, the RCC got it wrong; Peter was speaking about the source of Inspiration not originating with man but with God as can be seen in v. 21.

    4. What type of worship do you engage in? Traditional? Contemporary? Blended? What?
     
  9. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    I have not done a great deal of dramas for worship, but since I have acted in some and written some, my answer is "yes, it is appropriate" since I have not changed from that.

    Example from Jerusalem Dragnet:

    Scene: Gadara. Sgt. Good Friday and Officer Frank Gannon approach

    Friday: Good morning, sir.

    Gadarean: Good morning.

    Gannon: We;re detectives for the Roman Bureau of Investigations, and we're trying to find out what really happend to a man known as Jesus of Nazareth. He was legally sentenced to death by a Roman governor, but his tomb turned up empty and some are saying he is living again-- that's a crime, sir.

    Gadarean: So? What does it have to do with me?

    Friday: We understand that you once had an encounter with this man known as Jesus.

    Gadarean: That's right. If it wasn't for Jesus, I'd still be jumping in and out of a burial tomb.

    Friday: Something sounds strangely familiar about this story, Frank.

    Gannon: I had a hunch, Goody. (to Gadarean) Sir, would you mind telling us a little more about your incident?-- that is, if it's not all dead and buried by now-- uh, excuse me.

    Gadarean: Well, there was a time years ago, when a legion of devils got ahold of me-- I don't mean the Roman kind of devils, but I do mean the Roman kind of legion. I left my home, tore off all my clothes, and the only place for me to stay was in the tombs. Sometimes the men from town came and tried to bring me back with them, but I could always break their straps or chains.

    Friday: Well, we're not here to seek new stories for MCA comics. But go on; what happened then?

    Gadarean: Then one day Jesus happend to come along, and I went berserk!

    Friday: How's that?

    Gadarean: The legion of devils inside me made me tremble and scream and implore him to not torment them before the time. They used my own voice to say that!

    Gannon: We've heard this Jesus was a teacher and miracle-worker. Was he a shrink, too? Or how did he get rid of those 'voices?'

    Gadarean: Well, there was this big herd of pigs feeding on a cliff down the shore over there. Those devils begged Jesus to send them into those pigs instead of into the desert with nothing to hold onto.

    Gannon:Then what happened?

    Gadarean: Well, Jesus made the world's largest supply of deviled ham.

    Friday: Yeah-- suppose so. But then what? Have you seen him since then?

    Gadarean: No. But after what he did for me, I wanted to follow him. But he told me to go back to my family and my neighbors and tell them about what wonderful things God has done for me. And that's what I'm still doing to this day. By the way, are you aware Jesus can save you, too?

    Friday: Frank, we know we've got all we're gonna get when they say that line.

    Gannon: Right, Sergeant. Let's take code-7. How about a deviled ham sandwich?

    Friday: (toward audience) I don't think we need any more ham than we've already got here.
     
    #109 Alcott, Sep 18, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2007
  10. jshurley04

    jshurley04 New Member

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    Church Fathers?

    Since when did the early church fathers, elders, leaders, or what ever, become our foundation for doing anything? Unless you are referring to the Apostles, our only guide is scripture. Since scripture uses musical instruments extensively then we should. Since scripture says to do/be those things that are profitable, good, holy, and so on then as long as those things don't violate this instruction and in many ways are very edifying to the body, we should use them when and where appropriate.

    I think we have to draw the line at bringing in Kathy Griffin to do a stand up as a part of our services though.
     
  11. jshurley04

    jshurley04 New Member

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    Good Drama

    That's good stuff, mind if I steal it from ya and use it in a service?
     
  12. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Let's try this one more time. You're not hearing me.

    By virtue of which, as I said, the meaning of a verse is universal and immutable. If, as you say, the use of latreuo in the didactic epistles allows Africans to beat their drums and dance in Christian worship, one could expect a long train of commentators who recognized that fact.

    So, do you have historic Baptist corroboration of your conclusions?
     
  13. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. I'm only reporting on the versatility of latreuo, which is so comprehensive. Africans beating on their drums and dancing are only one example of the global impact of the gospel Jesus meant to occur.

    2. A few days ago, I went into a Christian bookstore and they had one of those Zondervan views on sale. This one was dealing with worship, where 6 views of worship are being argued.

    3. Why do I need Baptist's corroboration, when different flavors of worship have always been the norm?

    4. I hope this Baptist's corroboration concept is not your synod or council on the conclusions of Scripture.

    5. I suggest you pick up your Bible and prayerfully consider the issue of worship from Matthew through Revelation and how proskyneo and latreuo are used. There's something at work here.

    6. How then should we worship? Are you somehow suggesting that we should all worship alike, whether you live in the Amazon jungle or the US?
     
  14. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Aaron, you might find the following helpful:

    In the NT there are two words often translated worship: proskyneo and latreuo.

    1. Proskyneo at its root means "to kiss." It came to mean "to worship, do obeisance, to prostrate oneself."

    a. In the NT it is the counterpart of the shachah, "to bow down," the main word for worship in the OT.

    b. Of the 60 times it's used in the NT, the bulk of its usage are in the Gospels and Revelation. Only 4 times in Acts and once in Paul (1 Cor 14:26) and twice in Hebrews. All the other occurrences are in the Gospels and Revelation, denoting exclusive worship to the Father and the Son.

    2. On the other hand, we have the second most common word for worship in the NT, latreuo, found 21 times in the GNT, with the meaning "to serve or worship God."

    a. It is use with proskyneo in Matt. 4:10, "You shall worship [proskyneo] the Lord your God, and serve [latreuo] him only."

    b. In its noun form, latreia, it is used of the cultic worship of the OT (Rom 9:4; Heb 9:1, 6). But then, latreuo came to refer to that inner worship of the heart toward God.

    c. This is the use that is seen in the Epistles of Paul (Rom 1:9; Phil 3:3). It is essentially worship from the heart as opposed to worship with through all the restrictions of the temple and so on.

    d. So when Paul wants to convey that all of life is worship to God and not just Sunday, he uses latreia, not proskyneo. But all latreia is proskyneo, in the true sense of the word.

    3. So worship is not about a place, whether Mt. Gerizim or Jerusalem. It is about a Person, namely, God (John 4). And it is not about one day of the Week. Rather, it is a 24/7 experience.

    4. And what best capture our proskyneo than our latreuo, which focuses on the inner worship of the heart, expressing itself through music, arts and so on--new forms and not the old forms of Judaism--and not centralized but global, so that the man in Africa can beat his drum in worship to God.
     
  15. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    More accurately, you need historical, scholarly corroboration. You need it because without it, what you say about implications of a text are merely the imposition of your own biases.

    So, before going any further, do you have such corroboration or not?
     
  16. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. The only corroboration I need is the witness of the Gospel's global impact, which have been happening for centuries, long before you and me, and will continue long after we are gone.

    2. Peoples of the earth continue to live out the meaning of true worship; they don't need the Baptist nor any other denomination to tell them how to worship God in spirit and in truth.

    3. We adopt the forms to suit our culture and that my friend, is latreia worship. That is all the corroboration you need.
     
  17. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Use it however you want to. That is, of course, just one scene in a play; when we performed it there 9 in all.
     
  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Patently false. If the nations who dwell in darkness need to be taught of Christ, then they also need to be taught to put a difference between the holy and the profane, the spiritual and the carnal.

    No it isn't. Not by any stretch of the word. Not in your denotative post above or in any dictionary or lexicon that I poses. No, that is not latreia worship, that's the incredible leap in logic you take to connect your personal biases to the Scriptures.

    Peace! :type:
     
  19. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    keep in mind....the distinction between holy & profane, spiritual and carnal........runs quite parallel with Aaron's personal preferences.


    ironic, isn't it? :laugh:
     
  20. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    I think we have both made our points. God bless.
     
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