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Vatican Ain't Ready For Reform

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by church mouse guy, Nov 25, 2018.

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  1. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    You put me in a category that I did not claim to be of, so obviously you did not read.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    If Rome taught the real Gospel, there would had been no reformation!
     
  3. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    The reformation was not about a lack of the true gospel but a lack of men to adhere to it. The sin was selling indulgences. As for the true gospel, only men of the cloth which included Martin Luther had access to the gospels. The little people or laity were guided by what the "shepherds" told them. The Dogma of the faith the RCC does have however , wolves have and had entered as scripture so clearly points out can and will happen. It is Christ's words however, that will remain.
    Acts20:28-30
    …28Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood. 29I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them.…
    Ezekiel 22:27
    Her officials within her are like wolves tearing their prey, shedding blood, and destroying lives for dishonest gain.

    Ezekiel 34:8
    As surely as I live, declares the Lord GOD, because My flock lacks a shepherd and has become prey and food for every wild beast, and because My shepherds did not search for My flock but fed themselves instead,

    Daniel 11:34
    Now when they fall, they will be granted a little help, but many will join them insincerely.

    Matthew 7:15
    Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

    Luke 12:32
    Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father is pleased to give you the kingdom.

    It would seem that the hidden message of the preservation of the word will be with the little ones-laity. And this is given unto the Last generation to find within all denominations precious gems and collect and keep them.
    The Lesson of the Fig Tree Matthew 24 :34-36
    …34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away. 36No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.…
     
  4. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    And I can assure you , you do not teach from the true gospels but of a sect which has fallen far from the Dogma of the faith.
     
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I teach the very same Gospel Paul did in Romans and Galatians!
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Rome teaches the Gospel of sacramentalism and good works....
     
  7. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Your belief.

    A different view:
    What are indulgences and plenary indulgences and is the concept biblical?

    According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, an indulgence is “the remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sin whose guilt has already been forgiven. A properly disposed member of the Christian faithful can obtain an indulgence under prescribed conditions through the help of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints. An indulgence is partial if it removes part of the temporal punishment due to sin, or plenary if it removes all punishment.”
     
  8. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    Again fix what's wrong in your own denomination , As for faith and works you have already been edified as to the meaning of James 2. You seem to be failing the class. Remedial reading.....you need a teacher to help in this. I on the other hand deal with the meat and have no time to catch you up to those who are in the study of the God Head.
     
  9. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    First of all you have put the cart before the horse. You must first accept the belief in purgatory. This both Catholic and Orthodox embrace. The ancient Hebrew is where it comes from they called (and still do) 'A Passing through Fire'. In the Jewish doctrine , it was a belief that one went through a fire before resting in Abraham's bosom. And the Maccabee's which your denomination rejects speaks of a certain period in which we are to pray for a soul that they rest in peace .

    In the NT St. Paul proves this Passing through fire or (Purgatory =purging by fire)for souls in:
    Christ Our Foundation 1Corinthians 3:12-14
    …12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward.…

    In the very foundation is this doctrine. It simply means that depending upon your quality if it be of (gold, silver, precious stones, wood hay or straw) will determine the effect God's fire will have on you. Gold and silver when refined the dross separates from them and only their purity remains. Precious stones , when put into fire no impurity comes forth they past through God's purifying fire unscathed like passing through warm milk and enter into the joy of the Father, as part of His spirit. The wood , hay and straw cannot withstand this fire and are consumed and cast away into eternal torment and darkness, forever does their smoke go up in hell fire.

    That is what purgatory is or Passing through the fire. What is believed is that on earth through confession and acts in faith you become a new creation in Christ and with each work IN FAITH your quality becomes better and better. Show your faith by your works is proof of faith. God adds to you more and more grace until you become full of Grace and are a precious gem. Not everyone attains this but some may be in the end silver, then they must be refined on their way to heaven through God's purifying fire. They may be gold, still yet a little refining needed.

    God accept these three qualities , soul conditions -gold , silver , precious stones(gems) but never wood , hay or straw. The fact that spirits ascend Jacob's ladder is indicative off the fact that there is a climb toward heaven for souls and this is revealed in Jacob's story. The descending as well, of angels and Mother Mary through her apparitions. Our prayers are taken up in the same way and are answered in the same way. It is a spiritual ladder between God and ourselves and is only permitted to be accessed by the faithful on earth as in heaven.

    NEXT. Indulgences are in party with sacramental reconciliation, the confessing of ones sins for pardon.

    The Prayer of Faith James 5:16
    …15And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail. 17Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years.…

    Now, your problem would seem to be if whether or not men in Christ have the authority in Christ to forgive sins.

    Your assignment: Why dont't you go investigate this in scripture then we will continue the discussion. I already know the answer. Remember Luther was against the selling of indulgences.
     
    #69 OfLivingWaters, Dec 17, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  10. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    Roman? This is not a clue to you?
    Romans 1:15-17 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
    15 —hence my eagerness to proclaim the gospel to you also who are in Rome.

    The Power of the Gospel
    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel; it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed through faith for faith; as it is written, “The one who is righteous will live by faith.”

    The Romans received the gospel of Christ third . FIRST TO THE JEW the foundation, then to the Greek. Hence Greek Orthodox, then Roman, Hence ROMAN CATHOLIC. St. Peter does call Roman Babylon in his epistle, but also states the church of Rome greets you from there. Hence, yes there are bad players and there is wheat an tare present there. It is the end of the age of sin and the wheat and tare are being separated. But what is unequivocally true is the RCC received the Dogma of faith before your German born denomination and does hold the Dogma of faith established in Rome by Peter and Paul.

    Your 16th century emergence is not when Christianity began. Your denomination is the offspring of men who played the harlot. You are the child of the harlot. In you is not the Dogma of faith. For in an attempt to be distinguished of the RCC you father rejected essential books of Hebraic Christian study. For all scripture comes by the Hebrew. The RCC, in compiling the scriptures excluded certain books as not Canon by extra biblical study.
    They are however , open to study unlike what your denomination has done and teaches. Christianity will survive denominations and the error of men.

    The Lesson of the Fig Tree Matthew 24 :34-36
    …34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away. 36No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.…


    I know all Hebraic writings which support the NT are true. I test according to the NT. Your denomination is far behind the curve.

    FOR today Christ is ADMONISHING ALL not just the RCC. He is calling everyone out of denominations who are to be His words.
    They will preserve all truth, from the first to the last. As long as you tout you denominational doctrine you will be found to not be perfected in Christ. I am not saying stop communing or fellowship with your church but seek sincerely , truth. If you see a truth being spoken by me then you would be wise to apply what is obvious, to your life and share with others who are in error.

    For I am NOT ashamed of the gospel of Christ, it reveals a purging state, it reveals mother Mary as a visitor of souls, the Ark of the Covenant , Theotokos, and many other doctrines which at present you reject because of your denominational indoctrination.
     
  11. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
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    Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification
    Now find a Catholic priest, Lutheran pastor or Bishop and beat them to a bloody pulp. It will make you feel so much better!!!
     
    #71 Walter, Dec 17, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  12. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    For those who accept the belief in purgatory, are they subject to paying a fee to expedite having the souls they are concerned about pass through the fire?


    Martin Luther's 95 Theses
    "This unbridled preaching of indulgences makes it difficult even for learned men to rescue the reverence which is due the pope from slander or from the shrewd questions of the laity. Such as: ``Why does not the pope empty purgatory for the sake of holy love and the dire need of the souls that are there if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a church?'' The former reason would be most just; the latter is most trivial. Again, ``Why are funeral and anniversary masses for the dead continued and why does he not return or permit the withdrawal of the endowments founded for them, since it is wrong to pray for the redeemed?' Again, ``What is this new piety of God and the pope that for a consideration of money they permit a man who is impious and their enemy to buy out of purgatory the pious soul of a friend of God and do not rather, because of the need of that pious and beloved soul, free it for pure love's sake?''

    But he was not against invoking indulgences.

    Since you invoked Luther, as an aside, Luther was an anti-Semite.

    On the Jews and Their Lies (1543)
    "First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them."
     
  13. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    Oh please, I did not invoke Luther I am making a point concerning hypocrisy. Put words in my mouth all you want. Continue in your jezebel doctrine if you must. What I said is not complicated, the scriptures are veiled to you.
    The Light of the Gospel 2Corinthians 4:2-4
    …2Instead, we have renounced secret and shameful ways. We do not practice deceit, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by open proclamation of the truth, we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.…
     
  14. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    I do not follow Luther. Sharing a bit of history for you Protestants who love to throw stones and yet live in glass houses.
     
  15. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    So be it - you do not follow Luther. Nor do I. As I documented, Luther was an anti-Semite.

    I am curious if you know whether or not the RCC charges a fee to speed up the process of getting souls out of purgatory?

    If so, do you know the fee schedule and is it universal?
     
  16. OfLivingWaters

    OfLivingWaters Active Member

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    You missed the whole point of my post. NO O ONE CAN BUY THEIR WAY INTO HEAVEN . NO ,MONEY CAN SPEED UP ANY PROCESS. Regardless of stupidity , my point is the doctrine of passing through fire (purgatory) is in the foundation is the point. You should be more concerned with that, not a false notion of money speeding up and getting you from point A to point B any faster.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Doesn't the blood of Jesus cleanse all the sins of the redeemed though?
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Sacramentalism is NOT the way God grants salvation to any lost sinner!
     
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Not better, just hope that ANY of them knew the real Gospel!
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Purgatory is fake place, its either heaven or hell!
     
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