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Venezuela crisis shaping up to be all about who has the guns

Discussion in 'News & Current Events' started by kyredneck, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Venezuela crisis shaping up to be all about who has the guns

    "If there's any question about the value of the Second Amendment, maybe the Venezuelan crisis will offer the best answer.

    What are we seeing there now?

    Obviously, not just an economic wrangle, but a military struggle. Venezuela's democrats, who are right now in a showdown with a brutal socialist dictatorship, have a strategy premised around supporting the constitution, which mandates that Nicolás Maduro step down, given the phony election that stands as the base of his legitimacy, and by getting hold of the military to make it real.

    Right now, they are in talks with military officials, urging them to leave Maduro, which is the latest development in the unfolding story.

    According to the Washington Post:


    CARACAS, Venezuela – The Venezuelan opposition is in talks with sympathetic military and civilian officials in a bid to force out President Nicolás Maduro, self-proclaimed interim president Juan Guaidó said in an interview Sunday with The Washington Post.

    ...and...

    Guaidó told The Post that talks with the military were proceeding behind the scenes. He also hailed a move on Saturday by Maduro's former military attache in Washington to switch allegiance to Guaidó.

    "We have been in talks with government officials, civilian and military men," Guaidó said. "This is a very delicate subject involving personal security. We are meeting with them, but discreetly."

    They scored at least one military man in the exit of the Venezuelan defense attaché in Washington. They've gotten a few but need to score more – and as the Wall Street Journal reported a week ago, the military leaders are still holding back.

    It's not just about rice bowls, though. Military defectors say it's also all about guns. The military apparently doesn't have any, or at least access to them, despite the massive arms sales from Russia that Venezuela's socialist regime has spent its oil bounty on.

    Here's a CNN report worth looking at:

    Caracas, Venezuela (CNN) – Venezuelan army defectors are calling on the Trump administration to arm them, in what they call their quest for "freedom."

    Former soldiers Carlos Guillen Martinez and Josue Hidalgo Azuaje, who live outside the country, told CNN they want US military assistance to equip others inside the beleaguered nation. They claim to be in contact with hundreds of willing defectors and have called on enlisted Venezuelan soldiers to revolt against the Maduro regime, through television broadcasts.

    "As Venezuelan soldiers, we are making a request to the US to support us, in logistical terms, with communication, with weapons, so we can realize Venezuelan freedom," Guillen Martinez told CNN.

    Hidalgo Azuaje added: "We're not saying that we need only US support, but also Brazil, Colombia, Peru, all brother countries, that are against this dictatorship."

    The military men are pleading for arms. They'll take care of the job, they say, if they have the tools to do it.

    Recall that when Venezuelan soldiers mutinied in the area of Petare earlier this month, their priority also was seizing weapons.

    It does suggest that a penurious armed force with no access to weapons is the problem. Apparently, not even the soldiers are trusted with guns by the dictatorship. The Maduro regime is starting to arm gangs as a means of checking the military. They trust gangs and thugs, but not responsible military men with guns, and seem to have disarmed them.

    It is known that conditions are bad for the soldiers even as they haven't defected much. Reports are out that Venezuelan soldiers running the state oil company have deserted to join the vast exodus of refugees out of the country because they too are hungry.

    There've been a lot of reports of soldiers starving, as this video from Caracas Chronicles shows.

    I cannot say who has the guns or who's going to get the troops the guns they need to defect and join the democrats. But what this does show is that guns are important. The soldiers are clearly afraid to defect because they don't have arms. And taking guns out of the hands of people who do obey laws or a constitution, such as soldiers and Venezuela's current recognized Democratic government, is what's keeping the dictator in place. Brazil under its new president, Jair Bolsonaro, made it his priority to give Brazilians their version of the Second Amendment. Guaidó is going to have to do the same when he eventually does get power, to ensure that Maduro can never come back to oppress and ruin again. It's all about the guns, and in Venezuela, who wins is a question of not whether there are guns, but who has the guns."
     
  2. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I say arm the opponents of socialism.
     
  3. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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  4. MartyF

    MartyF Well-Known Member

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    I know the Maccabees are not scripture for most people, but I have started reading them. One interesting part I found was when the Jews passively didn't defend themselves and got slaughtered.

    I think that Christians who say that Christians should never use violence have never had to truly deal with true injustice - just fake injustice like someone calling them a bad name.

    I definitely do not believe in going out in a blaze of glory. Just trying to get as many of them before I go down is not a Christian attitude.

    At the same time, if I am part of a Christian community, finding a way to save the community either through flight, political action, or possibly violence seems like an appropriate thing to do.

    I think people commonly misunderstand the passage:

    Matthew 5:39 NLT
    But I say, do not resist an evil person! If someone slaps you on the right cheek, offer the other cheek also.

    Notice the degree of the offense. A slap on the cheek is not even a permanent injury.

    Jesus didn't say "If someone rapes your wife, hand him your daughter!" or "If someone stabs you in the gut, turn around to give him a better shot at your kidneys!" or "if someone cuts off your ear, offer them your other!"

    It was that one shouldn't worry about avenging every little minor offense against you.

    The next passage pacifists like to use is

    Matthew 26:52-54 NLT
    “Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die by the sword. [53] Don’t you realize that I could ask my Father for thousands of angels to protect us, and he would send them instantly? [54] But if I did, how would the Scriptures be fulfilled that describe what must happen now?”

    Jesus' rebuke of Peter is not a call for all Christians at all times to never protect themselves. It was specific to a situation. Jesus was showing concern for the welfare of his apostles. He would be the only one to be crucified that day.
     
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  5. FaithAndWorks

    FaithAndWorks Member

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    The Maccabees are scripture for most people of the faith , they are just not for MOST Protestants.
     
  6. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    I wouldn't say "most" and you should leave out the "the" as well.

    If not , we will all know you are talking about people we know don't believed they are saved by their faith. I'm sure you don't want to leave that impression, do you?
     
  7. FaithAndWorks

    FaithAndWorks Member

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    Really, then that would include the FIRST Church and the OT Hebrews. It is how Hanukkah came to be. You protestants think your father of the Protestant movement had it right, he was wrong, PERIOD. For today 1&2 Maccabees do not fit all your false narratives that you have developed through not receiving the FULL BIBLE, which by the way is even more than what the Catholics call Canon and many Orthodox. The ancient Hebrews all studied Maccabees and so did the apostles. Any Messianic who does not is because he was converted by a Protestant, but certainly not because it was rejected by Christ and His followers or those prior.
    Christ is the fulfillment of the Maccabees. These are the days in which knowledge shall increase . Embrace your admonishment and increase in learning. The Christian Jews understand and believe everything in the Maccabees. And the few Messianic Jews who do not are coming to the realization of the necessity of 1& 2 Maccabees after waking from the Protestant slumber.

    This article was published in the Fall 2007 issue of Bible and Spade.

    Two friends of mine, believers in the Lord Jesus living in Israel, shared with me their excitement over the impending birth of their firstborn child. I inquired as to the due date of the child’s birth. The proud father-to-be replied, “The doctor said the child is due Dec. 25th.” I lamented, “Oh, bummer, the poor child will only receive one set of gifts for Christmas and his or her birthday.” Yisrael half-jokingly responded, “That’s no problem, we’ll celebrate Hanukkah instead!” We had a good laugh, but I thought to myself, “The Lord Jesus, the Messiah of Israel, celebrated the festival of Hanukkah, yet there is no record in the Gospels of Him celebrating Christmas!”

    The Origin of Hanukkah

    Hanukkah is a Jewish festival that commemorates the purification and rededication of the Temple by Judas Maccabeus on Kislev 25, 165 BC (usually in December). Three years prior, Antiochus IV, the Seleucid (Syrian) king, defiled the Temple by erecting an idol to Baal Shamen (the Canaanite counterpart for the Greek god Zeus), sacrificing a pig on the altar in the Temple and proclaiming himself to be a god. Some of the coins he minted had his features on the face of Zeus along with the words “Theos Epiphanes” meaning “the god manifest.” He also decreed that Torah (the Law of God) could not be studied under penalty of death; also Jewish males were not to be circumcised and it was forbidden to keep the Sabbath. This brought an internal struggle within Judaism out in the open. On the one hand there were the observant Jews who wanted to keep Torah, continue circumcision and observe the Sabbath. On the other hand, there were Hellenized Jews who wanted to assimilate into the Greek culture around them and become “born again” Greeks! That included wrestling in the gymnasium wearing nothing but their “birthday suits”!


    [​IMG]


    Hellenized Jews. They wanted to become “born-again” Greeks, participating in Greek-style wrestling in the gymnasium.


    Antiochus sent troops from village to village with a statue of himself, ordering people to bow down to it. One day they arrived in the village of Modi’im. An elderly man stepped forward to comply with the order, but an observant priest, Mattathias of the Hasmonean family, thrust him through with a spear and also killed one of the Seleucid soldiers. Thus began the Maccabean revolt. Mattathias, his five sons and others fled into the Gophna Hills and conducted a guerrilla war against the Seleucids for three years. Eventually, Jerusalem was liberated, yet the Temple was defiled. The history of this revolt is found in First Maccabees 1 and 4 and Second Maccabees 6 and 10. While these books are in the Apocrypha and not part of the canon of Scripture, they record important historical information.


    [​IMG]


    Still learning today. Fathers teach their sons to read, study and keep the Torah.


    The Rabbis recount the miracle of Hanukkah in these terms,

    On Kislev 25 begin the Hanukka days, eight of them....When the Greeks entered the Temple Sanctuary, they contaminated all the oil. When the Hasmoneans defeated them, they searched and found only one cruse of oil bearing the High Priest’s seal. The cruse had enough oil for only one day’s burning, but a miracle came to pass and it lasted eight days. The following year, these days were declared a holiday to be celebrated with the saying of Hallel [a recitation from Psalms 113–118] and thanksgiving prayers” (Megillat Taanit).

    The centerpiece of the celebration is a nine-branch candelabrum. The first candle is called the “servant” candle and is used to light one additional candle each night to commemorate the eight days of the miracle.

    Jesus Celebrates Hanukkah

    The Lord Jesus observed the celebration of Hanukkah in the Temple during the winter of AD 29 (Jn 10:22–39). Just prior to this account in John 10, the Apostle John gives two “illustrations” (10:6) of Jesus as the Good Shepherd (10:1–5 and 10:7–10) and records Jesus’ interpretation of these parables (10:11–18).


    [​IMG]


    Coin of Antiochus IV. The arrow on the left hand side of the left coin points to the phrase “Theos Epiphanes,” declaring him to be “the god manifest.”


    The Jewish reader would immediately pick up the messianic connotation of this discourse. The Davidic Messiah would be a Shepherd (Ezek 34).

    As Jesus walked thorough Solomon’s porch on the east side of the Temple enclosure, some Jews approached Him and asked Him point-blank, “Are you the Messiah?” (10:24). Jesus had to be careful how He answered that question. During the festival, throngs of Jews, caught up in the nationalistic fever, were visiting Jerusalem. The word “Messiah” might spark off riots because of its heavy nationalistic and political overtones.


    [​IMG]


    Map of Palestine. See Modi’im (Modeim) and Gophna, where the spark that ignited the Maccabean revolt began.


    Roman intelligence, headquartered in the Antonia’s Fortress to the northwest of the Temple, was aware of a popular song entitled “A Psalm of Solomon, with Song, to the King.” In this song, composed during the mid-first century BC by a Pharisee, the Messiah was acknowledged as King and a Davidic ruler that would reign forever. He describes how the latter Hasmonean rulers led the people away from Torah, and how the Romans under the leadership of Pompey punished the people in 63 BC. The Pharisee prays that the Lord will raise up a king, the Son of David, to rule over Israel. In so doing, this king would “destroy the unrighteous rulers,” “purge Jerusalem from Gentiles,” “drive out the sinners,” “smash the arrogance of sinners,” and “destroy the unlawful nations”! Their king, the Lord Messiah, would do all this! (Psalm of Solomon 17).

    If Jesus had answered the question “yes,” the Roman authorities would have arrested Him on the spot for insurrection. Jesus does, however, answer the question in the affirmative, but not directly. When He answers, He is careful not to use the contemporary term and understanding. After pointing out the security that a believer in the Lord Jesus has because of faith in Him, He says, “I and My Father are one!” (10:30). That statement had heavy religious overtones for the festival which they were presently celebrating. Those gathered on the Temple Mount recalled the events nearly 200 years before on the very mount where Antiochus IV, a mere man, proclaimed himself to be god. Jesus, God manifest in human flesh, made the same claim—but His claim was true. The Jews picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy because, in their thinking, He was a man who made Himself out to be God (10:31–33). Jesus declared that He was the fulfillment of Hanukkah by saying the Father “sanctified” the Son of God and sent Him into the world (10:34–36). The Father was in Him and He in the Father (10:38). If the Greek word “sanctified” were translated into Hebrew, it would be “dedication” or Hanukkah!

    “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Then the Jews said, “It has taken 46 years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body (2:19–21).

    A wicked and corrupt priesthood had defiled Herod’s Temple. The sinless Lord Jesus was “sanctified” by His death, burial and resurrection and is the New Temple.

    The Apostle John selected “signs” (miracles) and events when he penned his gospel, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, to convey two purposes (20:30, 31). The first was to present the deity of the Lord Jesus. John skillfully selects the Hanukkah event because of the festival impact on the crowd. In contrast to the arrogant and blasphemous statement by Antiochus IV, Jesus truly is God manifest in human flesh. The second purpose was to challenge people to put their trust (believe) in the Lord Jesus Christ as the One who died for their sins and rose again from the dead. When they trust Him, God gives them the gift of eternal life, forgiveness of sins and a home in Heaven. There seems to be a marked contrast between the response of the Jews on the Temple Mount (10:37–39) and those “beyond the Jordan” who believed on Him (10:40–42). What is your response? Have you trusted the One who is the fulfillment of Hanukkah?

    Happy Hanukkah!
     
    #7 FaithAndWorks, Feb 2, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  8. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Guns allowed under the 2nd Amendment are not adequate to defend against a city policeforce much less military-grade weapons.
     
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  9. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    :Roflmao Thought so.

    We (Baptists) don't need Maccabees to tell us we are saved by grace through faith and can't work our way to heaven. If you do...well, let's just say I'm sorry for you.
     
    #9 carpro, Feb 2, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
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  10. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    They're certainly better than nothing.
     
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  11. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Are you serious? Today there was a march in Venezuela against the Maduro regime and it was reported to be "in the tens of thousands". Seems to me if only half of them had weapons some serious damage could be done to the police. In case you didn't know, the AR-15 clones and AK-47 variants that many Americans own ARE military grade weapons except for one thing - they are semi-automatic only.
     
  12. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    This has been going on for many years. Maduro's stronghold is Caracas so he probably has disarmed most. However, the Cubans and Chavistas had to call for 400 Russian Wagner Group to help them so you are probably correct that there is a threat. Raul has to be ashamed that he had to get the Russians to bail him out in Caracas. The 400 Russians stopped in Havana first to see what the problem is. Maybe someone sent in the A-Team.
     
  13. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Yes, I am serious. The mob might win a battle but they will lose the war. AR-15s, etc., are no defense against armored vehicles and rockets.
     
  14. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    There are 100,000 Cubans in Venezuela. Many of them are special forces trained by the KGB and man tanks in the Russian army--some just returned from combat in Syria. Also, Russia sent in 400 elite troops from the Wagner Group, apparently in part to remove gold from Caracas to Russia. The Russians reported to Raul in Havana before flying on to Caracas. My personal guess is that Maduro has lost control of some of the rural areas but still controls the capital Caracas.
     
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  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I am praying for a peaceful outcome. Nothing is more ghastly than civil war, as U.S. history should tell us, not to mention the recent history of Libya, Syria, the D.R.C., former Yugoslavia etc.
     
  16. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    The Second Amendment guarantees us military weapons. The Courts are too stupid to read it. "Well regulated militia" means well armed with the armament of a regular standing army soldier. Militia was every man of service age. There are plenty of weapons in this nation to oppose a tyrannical govt.
     
  17. Wesley Briggman

    Wesley Briggman Well-Known Member
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    Your opinion might be right, but the courts opinion overrides yours. Who would regulate the militia?
     
  18. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Not if the Army turns and supports the people. There have already been some high level defections of military people and international pressure is building. Even the slums where Maduro got his support have turned against him, very few are still on his side. The Maduro regime is dead right now, the only people eating well are those at the top who are allied with him. I never thought Ferdinand Marcos of the Philippines would lose power, but he was removed very quickly when things spiraled out of control. Mark my words, the same thing will happen to Maduro - it's only a matter of time.
     
  19. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Each individual state. In fact, right now many states already have militia's that have chains of command. Don't worry, if the Federal government got so bad in this nation that arms had to be resorted to, there would not be a problem.

    There are hundreds of thousands of ex-military folks walking around right now and in a bad scenario leaders would arise and coalesce around them. I don't see rank and file soldiers shooting down their friends and relatives in the streets to support a government led by the likes of a Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

    I have come to the conclusion that todays Democrat Party and a Constitutional Republic cannot exist together.
     
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  20. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    "Regulated" meant armed like a regular drier of the standing army. Look to history for your answer. The people bought their own arms.
     
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