Verses that PROVE Definite Atonement

Nice Work!

 

Hi Whetstone;
No one argues that there is no Atonement but what kind and for who.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Notice this says that Salvation has come to the Gentiles. Salvation was once of the Jews only but now it's for all.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

indeed it is good work - unless you wanted to make a point about Arminianism. Simply pointing out the COMMON GROUND texts does not address the differences.

The alternative to the Limited Atonement view of Calvinists is NOT just universalism.

Even 3 point Calvinists accept the Arminian truth that the ATONING SACRIFICE of 1john 2:2 is for ALL - the debt owed by ALL is covered in the sacrifice at the cross!

In Christ,

Bob


In Christ,

Bob

 

You start in your OP with 2Peter 3:9 asking "can we use 2 Pet 3:9 to unlock all THESE verses".

Now in this latest response you ask if 1john 2:2 can be used to unlock "ALL THESE VERSES" -- but you have shown NO VERSES that are in conflict with EITHER the clear and explicit acceptance of 2Peter 3:9 OR of 1John 2:2 (The ATONING SACRIFICE for our sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD).

If what you mean is "can we bend 1John 2:2 to fit the usages of Calvinism" or "Can we bend 2Peter 3:9 to fit the usages of 4 and 5 point Calvinism" -- then I would say that it has been attempted but the attempts have failed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

AT THE CROSS we see the "Atoning Sacrifice" for the WHOLE WORLD - completed for all mankind as the text says.

But Calvinism would spin this around to say that NOT ONLY is the ATONING SACRIFICE of Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" complete but so also is the High Priestly work of Christ shown in Lev 16 completed at the cross (so lets just ignore the POST Cross work of Christ as High Priest defined in Heb 4,7,8,9,10).

Then having established that point of error as the foundation - Calvinism observes that the ENTIRE process of Atonement can not POSSIBLY be completed/applied to ALL since ALL are not saved.

I agree that ALL are not saved and that the LOST in hell do
NOT experience the result of completed atonement. BUT THEY DID experience the result of the ATONING SACRIFICE Completed for them. (experienced in part if not in full) For that resulted in Christ standing at the door and knocking -- it resulted in the Holy Spirit convicting them of sin and righteousness and judgmenet - it result in their being ENABLED to choose life - as Christ who IS the light of the world came and "ENLIGHTENED EVERY one of MANKIND" John 1.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hey Bob

As usual you go to the opposite extreme missing the truth in both attempts. Here, it is blatantly false that Calvinists disregard the POST-Cross work of Christ. It is you who denies this POST-Cross work of Christ Who continues to ensure justification to the UTTERMOST!

Calvinists (and Free Grace theologians like me) are able to keep atonement in parallel with Christ's other High Priestly ministries - - - yet know that they are distinct. You blend them together replacing the sufficiency of Christ's once-for-all atonement with the foibles of human obedience.

Your denial of Christ makes Calvin's error a triviality. Atonement is eternal, permanent and complete. Intercession is ongoing. Don't blend them together. Don't confuse justification with sanctification. This is one of the worst possible mistakes a theologian can make!

Lloyd

 

Hi Whetstone;

Actually your title suggest your going to prove atonement exist. I agree it does. Is it universal? It was originally meant for anyone that accepts the truth of Christ. Believing in Christ is what the atonement is all about. It doesn't extend to those who do not believe. However everyone can believe. No one is refused the ability to believe. As in the doctrine of Total depravity.

Universalism is what Calvinism must be about. Calvinist being reformers of the original Catholic faith. Which is the so called universal church. Calvinist claim that Augustinism is the only true doctrine which was also the doctrine of the RCC. The RCC wandered from thier original faith and became apostate and people like Luther and Calvin protested against it. Thus the reformation. Calvin once said that apart from the Church there is no Salvation making the RCC a necessary part of Salvation. Which just isn't true. The church has no redeeming ability, it belongs to Christ alone.

Calvin didn't want to destroy the RCC, he wanted to restore it to it's original faith. So when you talk about universalism your talking about your own faith.

As far as universal atonementists.
I'm not sure if anyone believes everyone will be saved.

Romans 11:11 Shows who the rest of elect are after the Jew. God first chose the Jews to be His people and made Salvation avalible to them. Then When He came in the flesh, Christ made Salvation availible to the Gentiles that's everyone else and not just the Jews. There is no longer any difference between the two.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

The amazing thing is along comes Augustine and Calvin and wala! we have a difference called double predestination. those who are elect and those who aren't. Romans 10:12 says that isn't so it says there is no difference.
How is it you'd explain that difference when God's word clearly says there isn't any

May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

I guess you would have to "pay attention to the debate" to follow my point on this one Lloyd.

Ranting will not suffice as a "substitute" for knowing the details of the debate.

(See - it works the same on ALL topics)

In this case Calvinism IGNORES the UNIQUE role of the High Priest in Lev 16 and as identified in Hebrews (POST CROSS) when it comes to the ATONEMENT because they NEED all aspects of the ATONEMENT to be finished BEFORE Christ gets to heaven. That way their argument for limited atonement can stand based on the observation that not ALL are saved and YET all aspects of the atonement ENDED.

Get it? Yet?

Once again Lloyd your pretending not to understand the argument does not serve hyour position. Nor does your ranting serve you when your argument runs out.

In this case you are arguing the Calvinist point that the Atonement is over - they have already shown that those who fall off the cliff you just leaped off of - have no defense against the limited atonement argument that is based on the obvious point that AFTER the cross ALL are still NOT saved.

The only half-baked response to their argument that you can muster once you have fallen on your sword as you just did - is to gut the atonement such that atonement IS completed for a man and yet the man is STILL LOST!

Such a gospel denying concept is not taught in all of scripture and so CAlvinist then get to roast you for going there.

And that is where I can not give you much help since you seem to willing to embrace the foundational error that results in your own roasting.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hey Bob,

Paul says that "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us". Was Paul wrong? Did Christ redeem us on the cross, or does He redeem us some other time, or what?

 

Hi Bob,

2 things I wanted to respond about-

1) I'm not comfortable with your use of Jesus standing at the door and knocking comment. First of all, the context of that from Revelation 3 is not evangelistic, but calling a church to repentance. To say the atonement resulted in that is mixing Biblical concepts in a way they do not fit together.

I understand as an Arminian you believe in a universal offer, else God is not just.

2) Do you believe, then, that all men are regenerate? It sounds like you may when you say all men are enabled to believe. What would you do with passages like Titus 3:3-8 which teaches a saving regeneration? The Holy Spirit is clearly the agent of salvation there, not man.

 

I realize it would be really great if Calvinists could "somehow spin" Paul so as to deny the truth of God's Word in Lev 16 where God shows us the process of Atonement STARTING with the ATONING SACRIFICE and also INCLUDING the unique work of the High Priest!

How wonderful if we could just "ignore all that BIBLE" and cling to "Calvinism anyway".

Christ DID become a curse for us and DID suffer as the "ATONING SACRIFICE" of Lev 16 "FOR OUR sins and NOT for OUR SINS only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

See?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Even the Pharisees and Herodians believed in the fairness/the Jusice of the Lord God, and they were clearly unsaved [Mark 12:13-14].

Calvinist's suggest to people that they might consider that God has the right to damn the majority and save the few [Matthew 7:13-14]. God cannot do this and still remain God of justice and love [John 3:16].

How is it that lost Pharisees could understand the truth about the Lord, even though Calvinists claim that sinners are 'dead corpses.' Apparently, there is a remaining 'image of God' in even those religious lost sinners [James 3:9].

My impression is some of the brethren and some Calvinists who are not even saved, are resisting the work of the Holy Spirit not only in their hearts but first of all in their mind.

All sinners are without excuse because Jesus' atonement is sufficient for all lost souls [I Timothy 2:6; Hebrews 2:9; I John 2:2] but efficient only in the elect because they have yielded to the convicting and convincing work of the Spirit of God.

Either Jesus 'tasted death for every man' {persons} or He did not die as a Mediator for all sinners.

If the atonement was not for all souls, the wicked at the Judgment of God could contend that the Lord was prejudicial against their eternal welfare.

All mouths will be sealed because Jesus did not fall short of providing grace and His blood for all sinners [John 5:24].

Is the Lord God bias or unbias? [Deuteronomy 10:17].

I attended a Five Point Calvinist seminary for one year in Philadelphia (Reformed Episcopal Seminary}and we hear often about the wrath of God but little of the love of God and nothing about the justice of the Lord. This fits the pattern of Calvinism. Acknowledge the wrath of God and then bury the remaining attributes of God because this would portray Him in His true splendor, grace and sovereign love for all lost souls.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

Whetstone,

Well there's you're first problem- you're telling God what He cannot do.

 

He is the "Atoning SACRIFICE for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" NIV 1John 2:2

And as 1John 4:10 points out "God sent His Son to BE the Savior of the WORLD"

Daniel said says nothing about God providing grace and blood for all sinners.

How you spin that around "all for Calvinism" is amazing!

In Christ,

Bob