Verses that PROVE Definite Atonement

Here are a few more passages that reflect on unlimited atonement:

PANTAS ANQRWPOUS again - all men/each person.


But the following is particularly difficult to ignore:

PANTWN ANQRWTWN - "all men/people." Especially those who believe is referring to the elect... now how could Jesus be the Savior of all people if He did not pay the penalty for the sin of all mankind? The comment about "especially of those who believe" refers to those who believe appropriating the benefits of His death for the sin of all mankind.

(not "all people" - but believers)

PASIN ANQRWPOIS - all people/men.


How about the following?

UPER PANTOS - "for the sake of all." Of course the Reformed view here is that "everyone" refers to just the elect... but what in the context leads to such a conclusion? I know, vs. 10 is typically taken to limit the meaning.

But you see the word translated "everyone" here is better translated "each." The Greek word used is PANTOS (singular - which has the idea of "each") as opposed to PANTON (typically translated "all," "whole," "every"). It is singular, which typically is used to bring out more strongly than the plural sense the idea that Christ death applies to each individual person.

(lit. - "all men")

(lit. again - "all men").

Clearly Adam's sin caused all mankind to need atonement, and the parallel is drawn to say that similarly by Christ's death atonement ("life-giving justification") was made for all mankind. "All men" should naturally be taken in the same manner in both phrases, right? Earlier you used Romans 5:9 as a reference for definite atonement. Often Romans 5:15 is used for L, but it must be taken in the context of verse 18. The "many" in verse 15 is defined in verse 18 as "all men."

(Everyone in both is PANTAS ANQRWPOUS - "each/every man/person." It's singular again.)

Now some will argue that these false prophets "among the people" were saved. But if so then we must acknowledge that they "even denied the Master who bought them." Are they saved if they deny Christ? The point here is that this text refers to Christ having paid the penalty for their sin.


But the classic verse which those who support unL repeatedly go back to is in 1 John:

Note the distinction between "ours" and "the whole world." Jesus propitiated for the sins of the elect, and also for the entire world.


And I have difficulty understanding 2 Peter 3:9 in terms of limited atonement as well. And consider John 16, a favorite passage of mine...

Notice the contrast between "you" and "the world." But why would the Holy Spirit convict people of sin, righteousness and judgment? The purpose of such conviction is to cause them to see their need and to come to Christ. In general John uses KOSMOS to refer to the world system in his writings.


In general, the issue that reformed have with unL atonement is they view it as impacting the sovereignty of God. But IMO it does not at all. God accomplished all that needed to be done in His death for mankind's sins. But if we have a free agency, then we can respond to such. That's really the issue here. If unL atonement is accepted, it becomes difficult to disallow free agency/free will. Jesus said to the Pharisees in John 5...

Earlier, in vs, 34, Jesus had said,

Now if they are not of the elect, then Jesus was not saying these things so that they would be saved.


Well, there's no doubt that we who have trusted in Christ have many benefits over those who have not. But I just don't buy limited atonement.

Thanks for considering what I had to share on this...

FA

 

King James Bond,

Your response is typical. You never even bothered to refute any of my exacting points or Scripture I produced. That is because Calvinism is baseless and without foundation. Do you somehow think people should believe you merely because of your declaration, "You are wrong."

I agree with your statement and understand the one that says, 'God loves sinners and hates sinners.' I too, have Scripture that backs this up and found that out years ago.

It is our believe and trust in Jesus that saves. John 3:16 seems to be a troublesome verse for you to really believe. We do not have any merit to bring to 'His table' if you will. We agree on this statement and fact also.

If I declare something to be Biblical true, in your book, I am patting myself on the back. If I were Dr. J.I. Packer or Dr. Pink you would have no problem with their reckless statements, and they would be glorifying God when they say that Jesus gladly and wilfully and autocratically sends most sinners to Hell. And on top of all this error they say that God receives glory in His decretive decisions. This is blasphemous!

Apparently, you are my priest and I guess I have not come by your 'confessional' lately. Forgive me father for I have sinned.

My righteousness is in Christ's imputed righteousness as recorded in Romans chapter four.

My pride and glory is in Jesus and in witnessing daily to His saving power.

Because I know Scripture and declare the truth, you as a man accuse me of pride and self glory. If I said it with less authority maybe that would please you and the evil one.

I am not accusing the Lord of damning souls as though it were 'His indoor sport.'

Thanks for reminding me of I John 1:9. I knew this when I was about eight years old. And I must confess to you that I have asked for forgiveness on a daily basis, Father Bond. Are you open for confessions on Saturday before Mass? This Sunday I will be busy.

You said, 'Has not God put it in your heart to see yourself at His utter mercy?'

 

To reach this conclusion you must interpret "world" based on a system created by a man. I am not saying the interpretation is right or wrong. I am simply saying it is an interpretation you must reach based on a system of understanding; therefore, it is limited.

Perhaps you are right.

 

Sorry KJB. I know you think you have all the answers on this issue, but you are also included in the "we" you allude to:

we can't wrap our finite minds around the magnitude of what happened on Calvary.

Regardless of how much you think you understand the nature and extent of the atonement, you have yet to begin to understand the magnitude of what happened on Calvary (unless you are some type of second incarnation of God).

I don't think you realize just how much truth is found in these few words.

The one thing that does not surprise me is that you made this statement.

By the way, you misunderstand me once again (and yet you are so clear on so many things) ... I never claimed I do not understand "atonement". What I do claim is that the extent and nature of the atonement (remember the original question) are beyond what we can fully grasp. There is a mystery element we cannot see clearly.

Here is a simple yes or no question for you that will clarify this whole point: do you believe you understand everything there is to know about the death of Jesus Christ, how God's wrath was displayed and yet appeased at the same time, how Jesus atoned for the sins of individuals and the sins of the world, how what Jesus did brought reconciliation to the world, how the love and wrath of God were fully displayed at the same time on Calvary, how the Father forsook the Son while maintaining the deity of both and the humanity of Jesus, how every intricate detail of the OT sacrificial system was fulfilled in that moment (which implies you know the extent of the entire OT system and what it implied), and what exactly took place when Jesus died and yet remained God (who cannot die)?

So are you going to suggest you understand comprehensively and completely the definite answer to each of these questions (and the dozens more I did not even begin to post)?

If your answer is no, you my friend are a hypocrite and should offer your apology for misrepresenting and misspeaking. If your answer is yes, we will await your book that explains the answers to questions that have baffled the most gifted theological minds of 2000 years.

So KJB, yes or no?

I think I will stick with Paul on this one:

...we know in part...now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror ... Now I know IN PART; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." (I Cor 13:9-12)

Of course Paul's "we" may not apply to you KJB

 

And assuming that 'world' means 'every single person' in this case, when in many cases it doesn't mean that, is based on ... what? The interpretation is based on the context. "n Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them" - who is reconciled to God? Who doesn't have their trespasses counted against them? No system is necessary to understand what is being said.

 

Ray,

It is God that saves. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Belief is a grant from God. Infants that are not capable to believe or trust may also be saved by God all as He wills.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘ Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world . 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘ Depart from me, you who are cursed , into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Is that clear enough for you?

I posted;

'As for myself, I find that God has put it in me to understand that I am no better than any other man. I deserve hell and all its fury for my sin. I was saved by the PURE GRACE of GOD and not one thing more. If He never would have rescued me I would never have wanted Him.'

And you respond;

Yes they probably do take it for granted. Many probably think they deserve heaven. And many claim that God saves on one hand...while on the other hand they claim God cannot save men unless thay are willing. Sounds like quite the powerless God there!

Have you ever thought why God draws people? Is there a reason?

If people are already willing in response to Christ He does not need to draw them because they are already willing. And if people are not willing and He draws them to Him.....why is it they still refuse to come? What is the use of Him drawing the willing if they are willing.....and what is the use of drawing those that are unwilling if He has no power to make them willing?

Don't you think God knows ALL things? Past present and future?

So I suppose that God is not capable of shedding His mercy upon mental retards and infants? Is that what you teach your congregation? To depend on their commitment?
Really kinda sad there Mr Ray.

Decide Ray.....mans works, willpower, effort, a wise heart......or GRACE of GOD?

I suppose now you will say infants can be saved.......so I would say belief is not a requirement of salvation but rather a product of salvation.

The grace of God upon those born in sin is the ONLY requirement of salvation.

Get it?

KJB

 

Actually I think world means MORE than every single person. I think world also implies creation itself and that God is reconciling all of creation to Himself in Jesus Christ (which actually fits the context even better in my opinion).

But I understand the necessity of interpreting "world" as "a portion of the world" when you are proving definite atonement.

Perhaps we should ask KJB what Paul actually meant. After all, he knows exactly what the apostle was thinking and saying.

 

AllaboutGrace,

A person does not have to be all knowing to know about the atonement.

If you go back and read my posts you will see that I said;

So quit changing my words and intent around would you? It is more like you who misrepresents.

A person does not have to be a sort of god to "begin to understand the magnitude of what happened on Calvary"

Tell me about this mystery element we cannot see?

If you cannot see the mystery element......or fathom it......how do you know that a mystery element exists?

So can you grasp 2 Cor 5:19 or not?

Again with your diversion tactics. As I said before; Since none of us know everything it is good for us not to lean on our own understanding of things.

I do know about limited atonement. I do know about 2 Cor 5:19. Even if they baffle you and are a mystery to you I understand them.

Tell me about the mystery part that I do not understand please.

I hardly implied and nor did I ever imply that I know everything there is to know.

Again what I said;

It is in line with;

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

KJB

 

Thanks KJB...I'll take your post as a NO.

 

There exists this problem.....it is a problem of people claiming to embrace limited understanding.

These people claim that they have limited understanding on a specific topic because it is such a mystery.

When people who understand a specific topic attempt to supply understanding, the one who claimed that he did not understand simply tramples attempts of explanation and claims things similar to "it must not be knowable".

And then the person that does not fully grasp 2 Cor 5:19 comes back with retorts as if the person who claimed he understood a specific topic was making a claim that he understood all things.

Since I implied I understood atonement and 2 Cor 5:19, how do you turn it to mean I say I know all things? Have you thought about false witness?

So if I were to give you the pearls of mystery that you claim you do not have, what should I think you would do with them?

Why should I think one who embraces limited understanding would want to understand?

I have no degrees in theology. Why ask me? Why even answer my debates?

KJB

 

Yep that is what it means to "Be the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR SINs and NOT for OUR SINS ONLY but for the SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2.

It means the wicked die NEEDLESSLY. They have full and complete pardon IN Christ and have no need to die - except they CHOOSE to reject the VERY Salvation God offers.

Hence the statement in 2Cor 5 "WE BEG you on behalf of Christ BE RECONCILED TO GOD"!!

Hence the Statement in Romans about MOVING them to Jealousy if perchance I might save some!

Hence the statement of Christ in Rev 3 "I stand at the door AND KNOCK. IF ANYONE hears AND OPENS THE DOOR then I WILL COME IN"

But then there are those who look at such a loving compassionate grace-giving savior and simply say "I think not!".

And so -- they do not all come in.

In Christ,

Bob

 

God's Lev 16 defintion of "ATONEMENT" covers MORE than just the "ATONING SACRIFICE" of the "Goat of the sin offering" as Lev 16 refers to it and as 1John 2:2 speaks of it as "THE ATONING SACIRIFCE".

The Calivinist claim is that the 1John 2:2 ATONING SACRIFICE (NIV) is limited to just the saved.

The Arminian claim is that the 1John 2:2 ATONING SACIRIFICE is UNLIMITED - the debt nailed to the cross is the debt of ALL MANKIND in ALL OF TIME!

But the Atonement process of Lev 16 includes BOTH The role of Christ as the ATONING SACRIFICE and the role of Christ IN HEAVEN - as our High Priest.

His Role as High Priest is TRANSACTIONAL and individual according to Heb 4 and 5. And that is how you get to Arminianism!

In the life of the individual that ATONING SACRIFICE must be brought about - and the individual must respond to Christ standing at the door and knocking. When the one on the inside OPENS the door then fellowship takes place.

Atonement covers BOTH the ATONING SACRIFICE of 1John 2:2 and also the specifics of each individual case ministered to through the work of Christ IN HEAVEN as our High Priest. The result is that "Judgment is passed IN FAVOR OF THE SAINTS" Daniel 7:21-22.

So the atonement process starts with the cross and ends after all aspects of EACH CASE are dealt with -- full and complete atonement with Judgment passed "in favor of the saints".

If you "skip all the parts in between" and just go back to 1John 2:2 redefining "Atoning Sacrifice" as "ALL of Atonement" then you get to a choice between limited atonement (by accepting Dan 7:22 and rejecting Lev 16 in your downsized view of atonement) or univeralism (by rejecting Dan 7 and Lev 16 in a downsized concept of atonement).

In Christ,

Bob

 

King James Bond

I am glad that there are some things that we agree about in your post.

 

Ok everybody get out your Captain Crunch secret decoder rings. Lets make it multiple choice so it is easier on those who fight against such secret things.

The wrath of God was upon Jesus Christ for what;

1) Every sin of every person.

2) Every sin of some people.

3) Only some sins of each person.

4) No sins of any person.

If the first statement is true that means all people are saved.

If the second statement is true that means some people are saved.

If the third statement is true that means no one is saved.

If the fourth statement is true, no one is saved.

Now search through Scripture.

According to Scripture does Jesus Christ save all people? Are some people going to hell and some to heaven? Are all people going to hell?

I know this is very complex and a huge mystery.

Now I know that some of you will say "But people must respond and believe".

Is un-belief a sin or not? Yes or no?

Now go back to the 4 statements and read them again.

Belgic Confession of Faith;

In this thought we rest, knowing that he holds in check the devils and all our enemies, who cannot hurt us without his permission and will.

For that reason we reject the damnable error of the Epicureans, who say that God involves himself in nothing and leaves everything to chance.

Article 21: The Atonement

We believe that Jesus Christ is a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek-- made such by an oath-- and that he presented himself in our name before his Father, to appease his wrath with full satisfaction by offering himself on the tree of the cross and pouring out his precious blood for the cleansing of our sins, as the prophets had predicted.
For it is written that "the chastisement of our peace" was placed on the Son of God and that "we are healed by his wounds." He was "led to death as a lamb"; he was "numbered among sinners"^45 and condemned as a criminal by Pontius Pilate, though Pilate had declared that he was innocent.

So he paid back what he had not stolen,^46 and he suffered-- the "just for the unjust,"^47 in both his body and his soul-- in such a way that when he senses the horrible punishment required by our sins his sweat became like "big drops of blood falling on the ground."^48 He cried, "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?"^49

And he endured all this for the forgiveness of our sins.

Therefore we rightly say with Paul that we "know nothing but Jesus and him crucified";^50 we consider all things as "dung for the excellence of the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ."^51 We find all comforts in his wounds and have no need to seek or invent any other means to reconcile ourselves with God than this one and only sacrifice, once made, which renders believers perfect forever.

This is also why the angel of God called him Jesus-- that is, "Savior"-- because he would save his people from their sins.^52

^45 Isa. 53:4-12 ^46 Ps. 69:4 ^47 1 Pet. 3:18 ^48 Luke 22:44 ^49 Matt. 27:46 ^50 1 Cor. 2:2 ^51 Phil. 3:8 ^52 Matt. 1:21

http://www.reformed.org/documents/BelgicConfession.html#Article%2021

KJB

 

Ray,

So then God's saving power is all left to chance?

He has no power to save people but only call?

And only those who hear His voice come?

By the way I did not call God a monster and all the other things like tyrant.

I would be careful just in case you are mistaken.

As for your remark;

May the Lord have mercy on men like you when you stand before the Lord on His judgment day.

I agree! Right to the point and I like that!

That is exactly what I need......His mercy! And I will have NOTHING at all to boast about except Him and His mercy.

And you.......I suppose on judgement day you will show Him your good heart.

What will you do that day? Will you boast about your good heart and how it was so willing? Will you stand before God and tell Him how wise you were in getting to heaven?

Why don't you explain to Him how good your ears were at hearing His voice! After all, we know that you made your own ears and heart!

I suppose "a man like you" needs no mercy.

KJB

[ October 28, 2005, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: King James Bond ]

 

Look at the context KJB ... a problem common to your replies. We were talking specifically about 2 Cor 5.19, so I was just going on what you said:

You say here you understand clearly Paul's intended meaning. So do you or don't you?

I also noticed you failed to answer my simple yes or no question from the earlier post.

I can't seem to get a straight answer from you.

 

#1. You start off with paganism's view of appeasement -- (Christ appeasing the angry God) instead of the Gospel "GOD so LOVED THE WORLD that HE gave" and that does not serve your argument at all.

#2. Christ suffers as our substitutionary atoning sacrifice on the cross. And it was God "IN CHRIST RECONCILING THE WORLD TO HIMSELF" 2Cor 5 it was NOT "The angry God being protiated until He relented and loved a few of us".

#3. Christ suffers for ALL and in that suffering opens the way for the Gospel means of salvation. Where Christ "STANDS at the DOOR and knocks! IF anyone hears and OPENS THE DOOR Christ will THEN COME IN"!! Rev 3.

These same Bible texts get posted EVERY TIME that Calvinist question is raised - and then the Calvinists "go on to some other point" only to circle back and ask the same question so the same texts can be posted "all over again".

In Christ,

Bob

 

If the first statemente is "untwisted" as I have shown above - and the Bible is inserted instead -- then we do NOT end up with "Universalism at the cross" -- rather we end up with the UNLIMITED Atoning Sacrifice completed at the Cross!

AND we see that The Gospel "CONVICTION of the WORLD of Sin and righteousness and judgment" as well as the "DRAWING OF ALL MANKIND" John 12:32 is brought about by the "LIGHT that comes into the world and so enlightens EVERY one of Mankind" John 1

In Christ,

Bob

 

Why don't you tell me. Do I or don't I? You are the scholar, leader, and pastor. Tell me all about the mystery stuff I do not understand. Remember you are the one saying you can't grasp the meaning of the verse.

So if I told you the intended meaning what would you say next? You can't know what I am saying because you are not in my head?

Do you think you have to be in Pauls head to understand the things he writes?

Why did he write these things? Do you think he wrote these things so we humans could be clueless?

I suppose one third of you congregation is made up of unbelievers.

I will answer you the same way you answer. In riddles and circles. Yes and no.

Sounds like many political figures I have heard of. And that is you.....bumping around like a boat on stormy waters never knowing what to think.

My advice to you is look up the word "reconciled".

After you understand the word........attempt again.

KJB

[ October 28, 2005, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: King James Bond ]

 

BobRyan,

Let me be very clear with you. In case you have not noticed I hardly debate anything with you.

The reason why I do not should also be made very clear.....if it is not clear.......let me make it clear to you now......

You are so far out of whack it is impossible to reason with you.

Why?

Because to reason with people they must first be reasonable.....and you are not reasonable.

You have no understanding of basic English language and therefore it is like debating with a brick.

I hope you understand my bluntness.

Thanks for your response.

I hope God blesses you!

KJB