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Volition

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by revmwc, Apr 25, 2017.

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  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Except that is not what it says. It say "by grace are you saved through faith." We have already discussed the fact that faith is the driving force of salvation, Positional, Progressive, and Permanent, a life long growing in the grace of salvation.
     
  2. SovereignGrace

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    Then the finished works of Christ are left unfinished if you add one iota to it. And when you mix 'your' faith(your meaning it comes solely from you in the form of innate faith and not a fruit of the Spirit) in, then the works of Christ are only finished after you insert 'you' into it.
     
  3. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    They don't realize their errors. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit.[Galatians 5:22]
    Not everybody has faith.[2 Thessalonians 3:2]

    Now, to those who oppose faith being a gift of God...

    Picture a tree. The fruit it produces comes from the seed inside of it. An apple tree produces apples because its an apple tree. We, in an unregenerate state, do not have the Spirit within us, thereby showing we have no faith, as it is a gift of God and fruit of the Spirit. Once divinely quickened, we now produce faith and are saved.
     
  4. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Not adding one iota to His finished work, Faith is not works it is that simple. You put Faith into many things in our life daily you have Faith. Yet you don't make things happen because you believe they will you do not one iota of work to make your faith work. But let's take John 12:32 again and break it down under what seems to be your belief, And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Who draws ALL men to Himself? But by you Christ can't draw ALL men he can only Draw those chosen, But He didn't say that HE said If He was lifted up and we know He was then He would Draw "ALL" not just those who are called, or those who were preordained to be preordained but ALL. His work on the Cross was finished for HE said it was from the crossw ith His last words. John 3:17 & 18 are clear too,
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Christ came into the world to save mankind, it doesn't say He came into the world to save those who would be given new life to gain new life by giving them faith, it says those who believe not are condemned for one reason, they haven't believed, with your belief shouldn't Christ have said they are condemned because the Father didn't choose to save them. What did He say, they are condemned because they failed to believe. With your point of view they never had a chance because God didn't choose to regenerate them to be regenerated. Yet Christ said in John 12:32 ALL mankind would be drawn to Him if He was lifted up, so did He lie?
     
  5. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    But again what is the free gift, the subject is saved, how is a person saved, by Faith and therefore what is the free gift, Salvation. Just like if you are given a gift of say $1000.00 dollars it is yours you only need to pick it up, if you fail to pick it p is it still yours? Of course but you rejected it and all you needed to do was go get it, so too is salvation, all the unbeliever is required to do is pick it up by Faith in Christ, the gift of Salvation is His, 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. The propitiatory sacrifice has been made by Christ on the Cross. The gift of salvation is there for all yet many refuse to accept the propitiatory sacrifice, they are Drawn by Christ we know that because Christ said it, as seen in John 12:32, if all are dragged by Christ then it must come down to their choice to reject or to accept. For if they are drawn in your belief then they must be regenerated when they are dragged, yet we know that not to be so.

    John 6:
    34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
    35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
    37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Christ came on a mission that mission was to save those who "that believeth on me". Then I see you and others center in on the Father giving to Christ souls or believers, how did God give them to the Son? Verse 40 states this as to the ones given, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life." Any and all that see or hear and believe, notice Christ didn't say to all the Father gives Faith to have Faith, no He said all who see and believe. How were they given Peter answers that, 1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. Paul also stated, Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate (God Gave them to Christ) to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    That is the key to understanding verse 37 of John 6, you must have Foreknowledge and predestination straight. God knew beforehand those who would and would not be saved, by knowing them beforehand HE Predestinated (GAVE Them) to be conformed to Christ and thus to have new life because of their Faith (Believing).
     
  6. SovereignGrace

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    Yes you did. Many die and go to hell. If Christ died for all, then those who went to hell went in spite of His death, burial and resurrection.

    Never said anything to the contrary.

    Yet 2 Thessalonians 3:2 say not everyone has faith. Care to state why you are willing to contradict God's word?

    Huh? Please clarify this.

    But how does He draw ppl? By His word, by His gospel we proclaim. According to C.I. Scofield's book 'Prophecy Made Plain', he stated that 800 MIILION ppl had not heard the gospel, and this was in 1967. A few weeks ago a Gideon came and spoke at our church, and stated 1.3 BILLION ppl, in India alone, had not heard the gospel. Then a few months back, 'Focus on the Family'(I think that's the radio program I was listening to) stated that 8 BILLION ppl have not heard the gospel. Now, how can He draw these who have not heard? Faith comes by hearing the message of the Christ, per Romans 10:17. Faith does not resonate from within a man, but comes by HEARING the word of God. It(faith) comes from an external Source, by God Himself.


    God, but through the word of God, not mystical thin air.

    That is what Jesus said, not me. All that the Father gave Him WILL come to Him, and all who come to Him, He will not cast aside. Now, if ALL were given to the Christ by the Father, then ALL would be saved.

    Again, those He draws He draws through the word of God, the Gospel of the Christ. Seeing that not everyone will hear about Christ, then not all will be drawn.


    Then you are preaching universalism. Not one drop of His shed blood was shed in vain. If He died for all, then many died never knowing He existed and His death for them was in vain. :(

    He gave His life for His sheep[John 10:11] and also for the church[Ephesians 5:25]

    Your exegesis is way off here.

    Wrong. Those who do not believe were condemned ALREADY.

    Wrong again. Those who do not believe were condemned ALREADY.

    If God had not chosen a MULTITUDE of unworthy sinners to give to His Son to redeem, none would be saved.


    And again, those who are drawn are those who He draws through the word of God, the Gospel of the Christ.


    Nope.
     
    #126 SovereignGrace, Apr 30, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2017
  7. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    @revmwc


    The Greek word used for 'draw' in John 12:32 is helko and it means to drag off, draw, lead, impel, to draw by an inward power. That same Greek word for 'draw' is also used in John 18:10 when Peter drew his sword to cut Malchus' servant's ear off and in John 21:11 when Peter drew the net to the shore.

    This 'draw' that Jesus was talking about is effectual in its application. When Jesus draws(helko) ppl to Himself, He does so in the same manner the sword was drawn from its scabbard and the fish were drawn to the shore in that net. When Jesus draws ppl, they will come. That is the thrust of John 6:37-45 and those He draws will come to Him.
     
  8. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Then you believe not one person will be lost, for He says He will Drag ALL to Him now if HE drags ALL and some reject and others don't then what do you have? The word "pâs" is used for ALL,
    A — 1: πᾶς
    (Strong's #3956 — Adjective — pas — pas )
    radically means "all." Used without the article it means "every," every kind or variety. So the RV marg. in Ephesians 2:21 , "every building," and the text in Ephesians 3:15 , "every family," and the RV marg. of Acts 2:36 , "every house;" or it may signify "the highest degree," the maximum of what is referred to, as, "with all boldness" Acts 4:29 . Before proper names of countries, cities and nations, and before collective terms, like "Israel," it signifies either "all" or "the whole," e.g., Matthew 2:3 ; Acts 2:36 . Used with the article, it means the whole of one object. In the plural it signifies "the totality of the persons or things referred to." Used without a noun it virtually becomes a pronoun, meaning "everyone" or "anyone." In the plural with a noun it means "all." One form of the neuter plural (panta) signifies "wholly, together, in all ways, in all things," Acts 20:35 ; 1 Corinthians 9:25 . The neuter plural without the article signifies "all things severally," e.g., John 1:3 ; 1 Corinthians 2:10 ; preceded by the article it denotes "all things," as constituting a whole, e.g., Romans 11:36 ; 1 Corinthians 8:6 ; Ephesians 3:9 . See EVERY , Note (1), WHOLE." So if He drags them He Drags them all, but we know not ALL come.
     
  9. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Rev, nice pretzel twisting of what SG said.
    You imply that God tosses out a huge net around the world and drags it in. Only those who escape are lost. Your implication is entirely false. Care to try it again or shall I assume you simply have no clue?
     
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  10. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Brother, where did I say this? You are not understanding what I said.

    In John 12:32 Jesus said He would draw all men to me when He is lifted up. Now, I used the Greek word(helko) to show that those Jesus draws, He draws, leads by an inward power, and helko also means to literally drag off.

    Now, Jesus does not drag anyone to Himself as if they go kicking and screaming against their will. The word helko means that those Jesus draws to Himself, He does so in an effectual manner.

    The word helko was also used in John 18:10 when Peter 'drew' his sword from his scabbard and also in John 21:11 when Peter drew the fish in the net to the shore.
     
  11. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    And Brother, you're hung up on the word 'all' as if it means 'all w/o exception' and that is not always the case.

    For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,[Romans 10:12]

    Now, does the Lord richly bless all, as in everyone w/o exception, or all that call on Him?
     
    #131 SovereignGrace, Apr 30, 2017
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  12. SovereignGrace

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    He's the one implying God drags ppl. Look at his theology. Jesus is drawing all to Himself. The word 'draw' means to literally drag off, impel, lead, draw by an inward power. Jesus is using a net in the same manner Peter used the net in John 21:11. Yet all those Jesus is drawing in the net won't make it to Him and be saved, but escape the net. So, Jesus is drawing ppl against their will per his exegesis...or eisegesis of John 12:32.
     
  13. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    You answered your own question with Romans10:12 He blesses all who call on Him you just need to add more of Romans10 and There in black and white is the answer.

    13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Here again is a clear and concise answer "WHOSOEVER" again we have the word "pas" Thayer's Definition
    1. individually
      1. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
    2. collectively
      1. some of all types
      Whosoever=whatever individual calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved, that is given new life. How is it obtained, by Faith
    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Then Paul ask the question many on this thread have ask, How shall they call on Him whom they have not believed? How shall they believe if they have not heard? In other words if they are Spiritually dead in Trespasses and sin how can or will they come to faith? They hear it from a believer who witnesses to them.

    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

    Who will tell them? Those who are sent out to tell them.

    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

    Many have heard the report, they have been told but Paul says they have not obeyed the gospel. It is up to the individual to obey the calling the dragging of the Lord, The Holy Spirit. Who hath heard our Report Isaiah ask.

    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Faith comes by hearing, hmmm I've seen man on this thread say Faith is the gift of God and only if He gives it, but the Pauline view of this is what Paul said here Faith comes by hearing, and Hearing, That is the Drawing of The Holy Spirit comes by the word of God.
    Very clear man must make a conscious choice.
    Let look at the first rejector of the Gospel.

    Genesis 4:
    3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

    As Cain and Abel came of Age, maybe came to the place where they knew right from wrong or maybe as heads of their home. They were responsible to offer a sacrifice for their atonement.

    4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:

    Abel followed the instructions to the letter, a blood sacrifice from an innocent lamb, just as the atonement sacrifice of Christ. He believed the gospel that his father told him, he heard and believed.

    5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

    Cain offered up a sacrifice from his own hans, his works and God rejected that offering. Was God through dealing with Cain no we see the next verse.

    6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

    The Lord Jesus in His pre-incarnate form came to Cain asking why he was made and his countenance down.

    7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

    If he would do well that is accept what God command, believe in the Savior who was coming and offer a blood sacrifice all would be well. Cain would b e saved by exercising his free will his volition to do that which was good. But Cain refused to do that which was good. Now let's putt his in the way that some on here say salvation works. When Cain's countenance was fallen because God rejected his offering, this is what The Lord should have said. You have a reason to have your countenance fallen ad be upset, I am not giving you the faith to believe and do that which is right because I didn't choose you. You are not mine and I have refuse even if you do that which is right to give regenerate you because I choose to let you go to Hell that is mu Will for you.

    But the Lord didn't say that and the Lord offered salvation to Cain, do that which is right and all will be right, Cain would be seen as Righteous.

    But we see the choice Cain made in the next verse.

    8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

    One sin the sin of rejecting salvation lead to another the murder of his brother.
    The Lord gave Cain the chance to repent and be saved, but Cain refused.

    Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

    Abel offered the sacrifice by Faith, Cain needed only to follow the example of his brother and by Faith offer the sacrifice required and required by God, to do that which was right and would lead to regeneration and righteousness, but Cain chose of his own free will not to do what God audibly told him to do.
     
  14. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    I'm not implying anything I just showed what Jesus said, John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
    Was Christ lifted up?

    Does HE "helkýō pas" drag (each and everyone) that is all men to Himself?

    That is what HE said not me. That is how scripture states it not me. I'm just writing scripture as it is written.

    Even John mounce supports it with his reverse interlinear:


    John 12:32Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)

    32 And kagō I , when ean I am lifted hypsoō up from ek the ho earth gē, will draw all pas people to pros myself emautou.”

    Even here it says all people will be drawn to Christ by Him.
     
  15. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Here are your words, "When Jesus draws ppl, they will come." post #127 is where you seem to be saying,what I ask about, that you believe not one person will be lost, for He says He will Drag ALL to Him now if HE drags ALL and some reject and others don't then what do you have? The word "pâs" is used for ALL, for John 12:32 says that Jesus stated HE would draw or drag all men to Himself. you say that "When Jesus draws ppl, they will come."
     
  16. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    1 John 2:2Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)
    2 · kai He autos is eimi the propitiation hilasmos for peri · ho our hēmeis sins hamartia, and de not ou for peri · ho ours hēmeteros only monon, but alla also kai for peri those of the ho entire holos world kosmos.

    Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE)
    The Mounce Reverse-Interlinear™ New Testament (MOUNCE) Copyright © 2011 by Robert H. Mounce and William D. Mounce. Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.
    “Reverse-Interlinear” is a trademark of William D. Mounce.

    His appeasement of God's requirement for sin, paid for the sins of all mankind, the sins of the whole entire world, or all of mankind.

    Why are ppl condemned to the lake of fire, John 3:18 states it clearly, He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    VERY clear because of their unbelief. Their sin is paid for in full by the sacrifice of Christ. PPL are lost and condemned because of Failure to believe the word of God. They are condemened to the second death, that is eternal separation from God because they have not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Very clear they must make that choice.
     
  17. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I agree that whosoever will call upon Him will be saved. However, why do some call upon Him while others don't?

    BINGO!!! Faith comes by HEARING the word of God and is NOT innate in man. I agree!! Now, why do some who hear it reject it and others who hear it reject it?

    Good so far.

    I dunno about Jesus in pre-incarnate form came to Cain. I tend to believe God spoke to him verbally from heaven. But I am not dogmatic about it.

    Here God exposed Cain's wicked heart. He told him if he did well, he would be accepted. However, Cain did not do well, but grumbled, complained to God. God exposed the wickedness of Cain's heart here.


    Cain was in open rebellion towards God. God told him if he did well he would be accepted. He went and murdered his brother. His wicked heart was exposed by God.
     
  18. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    How does God draw ppl? He does so through His word.

    C.I. Scofield stated that in 1967, 800 MILLION ppl had not heard the gospel of the Christ.
    The Gideon who recently spoke at my church said that 1.3 BILLION ppl had not heard the gospel.
    Focus on the Family radio program stated that 8 BILLION worldwide had yet to hear the gospel.

    How can God draw them that don't know Jesus exists and never hear the word of God preached and/or witnessed to them?

    That's the question I hope you'll answer for me. Thanks in advance.
     
  19. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Context, Brother, context.

    You seem to be stuck on the saying 'all means all, and that's all that all means'. Yet, all does not mean everyone who ever existed, but all within a subset.
     
  20. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    First off, God is the One who was propitiated and not man, as He was the One who was offended. Secondly, if God's wrath has been appeased, then everyone without exception is saved, as there is no wrath from God that needs to be meted out.

    They were condemned already, Brother. Many ppl died and never heard the gospel to reject it, yet they died condemned in their sins.
     
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