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"Vorlage" text...

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by robycop3, Aug 21, 2006.

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  1. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Brothers

    The presence of a vorlage text can and should be discussed from an academic perspective.

    From a devisive perspective, it could become KJVO and I know that Paul has been here as long as I and he and I have seen some pretty strong comments.

    I might have made all of them . . . just kidding - I personally tend to be KJV perfered and very supportive of KJVO brethren - because I grew up using the KJV and really like it.

    But, the presence of a vorlage text is important. The disagreement of specific verses between the MT, LXX, and vorlage is important.

    These can add a significant amount of academic knowledge from those of us that know so little. ;)

    God bless

    Wayne
    PS - What is the vorlage text? ;)
     
    #21 El_Guero, Aug 24, 2006
  2. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    What is the vorlage text? It's a parent Hebrew text from which the Septuagint was translated. "Vorlage" is German for "forward position". Apparently, most New Testament quotes of Old Testament Scriptures were taken from this, or a similar text, if the LXX hadn't yet been made in Jesus' day.

    I don't know if this text is extant or not.
     
    #22 robycop3, Aug 24, 2006
  3. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Thank you!

    So now we can research the topic of the text that underlies the LXX and the MT?
     
    #23 El_Guero, Aug 24, 2006
  4. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Why not? JESUS read aloud from some text that wasn't the Masoretic Text, so it musta been authentic.
     
    #24 robycop3, Aug 25, 2006
  5. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven New Member

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    the LXX (contra the denials of Ruckman, FEBC, n their kind) was indeed completed by Jesus' time, by abt over 100 yrs! check this link out for the visual evidence: http://p078.ezboard.com/fbibleversiondiscussionboardkjvonly.showMessage?topicID=2329.topic&index=137


    the reason anything's called a Vorlage is that it's NOT extant--otherwise they cld easily assign a MS number (P52, 04287, etc.) to it. of course the LXX had to be translated fr something, but scholars r careful not to be too specific w evidence that is deduced rather than produced, calling it Vorlage, whatever must've gone before.

    what i'd be curious to know is whether the Jews up north (in Nazareth) in Jesus' time wld allow their Scriptures to be read in the Greek (LXX), or whether they insisted on having it read in Hebrew only.
     
    #25 Forever settled in heaven, Aug 25, 2006
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Caves Q 1, 4, 5, and 6 contained what were first called "Septuagint type texts" of the OT, especially Exodus which, when compared to the LXX showed evidence that they were the basis for that translation and thus were examples of the vorlage (before translation) text which differed from the Masoratic type text.

    I don't know exactly what their designations are off the top of my head but I will look them up and give you the mss numbers.
     
    #26 TCassidy, Aug 25, 2006
  7. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Wasn't there a DSS copy of the Hebrew text of Jeremiah that also appears to be the source of the LXX for Jeremiah?
     
    #27 Paul33, Aug 25, 2006
  8. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven New Member

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    might some of these be pertinent (it's not as straightforward as it first appears)?

    http://engmann.20m.com/about.html
    http://www.peterballard.org/lxx.html (see the Appendix) http://orion.huji.ac.il/orion/archives/1996a/msg00518.html
    http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2004-March/017514.html
    http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Messiah/Lxx_mt.html
    http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2006/07/text-and-canon-or-do-we-really-want.html

    here's what some of the DSS/LXX experts look like, fwiw:

    [​IMG]
    [back row] 13=Lawrence Schiffman 14=?m 15=Johan Lust 16=Kurt Treu 17=George Brooke
    [middle/front row] 12-13=Fred & Sue Young 14=Mario Cimosa 15=Kevin Cathcart 16=Robert Kraft

    glad somebody's doing the work!! :thumbs:
     
    #28 Forever settled in heaven, Aug 25, 2006
  9. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Thanks for the links. I have enjoyed reading some of them!
     
    #29 Paul33, Aug 25, 2006
  10. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    Has anyone come up with anything further?

    The AV translators believed the LXX was made in the 280s BC at the command of Ptolemy Philadelph, the ruler of Egypt.(and the Judea area) (It's doubtful that he served God because he had married his full sister Arsinoe. SHE was called 'philadelph' for marrying her brother, but the name was also applied to Ptolemy himself.)

    And others, such as Doc C, believe it was made much later. If DC is able to find what mss from which the LXX was made, he will have proven his view much-better than the AV men were able.

    Of course, we cannot rule out that more than one Greek translation of the OT was made over the years while the Jews were under Greek rule.
     
    #30 robycop3, Sep 14, 2006
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