Wait for baptism until...

My point as well. It is a significant distinction. It is one thing to take the time to make sure that understanding is as clear as you can make it, its another thing to try and make sure that they really meant it. The former creates a "wait" of only minutes, the latter creates a potentially indeterminate wait.

 

Agreed :thumbsup:

 

I think you are wrong about there being a masssive difference between new believers who were Jewish and new believers who were pagans. You're talking about their knowledge of the Bible. The examples are not about knowlledge but about actions. In Romans, Paul makes it clear that both jews and pagans had all missed the boat massively. They may have known the Bible stories, but they had no clue about salvation by God's Grace entirely. No, the new believers from paganism had far less to over come than the newly believing Jews who moved from salvation by works to grace.

All of those saved on the day of Pentecost, Cornelius and the Ethiopian never had an investigation about their inner life

When you say that Paul talked about not baptizing anyone, your view is not the only one that is possible. The church at Corinth had huge problems with raising up 1 man over the other. (I am of Paul, I am of cephas .. etc) He could have very well been saying that he was glad he hadn't baptized many people less they think they were the most spiritual.

 

Freeatlasat, I presume that you are in your area, so if you desire a church where the Bible is practiced, why not start doing it? :thumbsup:

Our church is only 10 years old this month and we've done fairly well. We have just added our third campus, are running 6 weekly services of worship, and are about 2400 in members -- plus half again that many visitors who have not completed the membership requirements as yet. All members agree to a membership covenant that lays out what membership entails, and we do practice discipline as needed when persons commit egregious sins.

In our member meeting last night, the elders laid out one of the problems we are facing as a church -- the lack of space to fit everyone into our community of believers.

We just added the third campus. A dying church deeded over a $3 million property and we renovated and re-launched to a crowd of 250. That location is now almost 500 and ready to start the 2nd service. They went from 30 existing members to a packed house in 3 months.

We also just purchased a Catholic Cathedral very near our main campus (an old 3 story elementary school) and a member paid for the new (to us) building at over $1/2 million. We're in process of renovations there and plan a public launch of the new building in August 2011. It can hold about 1000 worshipers per service, up from our current building's 450.

We'll keep our existing campus, which is also an art gallery and music studio (we write many of our own songs and hymns and feature a lot of local artists work) for youth programs and community service projects. We are highly invested in our community, having almost single-handedly turning around a neighborhood that was once a slum.

Our other new plant this year is on the east side of our city. We're in a Catholic high school building that they have stopped using, and that congregation is about to go to two services as they are now maxed out at 500.

Another campus launch is also planned for next summer in a community across the river from us. A local business person gave us a $300K donation to assist with the launch of a congregation in that area. We intend to move into another down-trodden neighborhood and bring a Christian perspective.

Our congregation and elders would like anyone who hears of this explosive growth to know that we do not see this as "normal" in the sense of the typical American church start. We attribute this growth and blessing to GOD. Only God can make the phone ring out of the blue with an offer for an entire property. Only God can draw enough people to a congregation where the Scriptures are preached plainly and truthfully to fill to overflowing buildings that were never really intended to be churches. Only God can cause the hearts of the people in entire communities to begin seeing things from a Christian worldview and cause great upheavals in that same neighborhood to the point where the gangs are chased out and the church members are buying homes and renovating the area. This is a GOD WORK that we are pleased to be a part of -- and our very name reflects our attitude. We are Sojourners that know that this is not our home, but while we are here, we will do what it is that God asks and do it with the joy of the Lord.

Ten years ago, we could not afford to turn on the lights in the place were we met, and the average age of the congregation was under 23. Today, we are one of the fastest growing churches in America and we are planting churches all over the world!

Here is an article in the normally antagonistic local paper:
http://www.courier-journal.com/arti...hurch-balances-10-years-of-faith-arts-service

We were also named the "best house of worship" by a local tabloid newspaper that polls the community every year on a wide range of topics. That is interesting because the owner and readership of that paper are typically not conservative Baptist church oriented by any means (they are very pro-liberal agenda!). We are one of those churches that would be missed in the community if we left. :saint:

 

We have an obligation not to cheapen baptism or treat it lightly. Too many people have been killed because they would baptize only believers, and would not baptize infants. Baptists were given that name by their enemies and it was not a compliment.

That's why we should at least try to make sure those whom we baptize have an understanding of what's happening. I suppose that it's not always possible to determine the validity of one's conversion, but we should at least try.

The Lord saved me 63 years ago. I remember it as clearly as if it were today. I remember that I had heard many sermons and Sunday School lessons as a child, but none of them registered with me until that day. That's when the Holy Spirit opened my eyes and my understanding and showed me my sin. Now those sermons on hell applied to me. It scared me to death.

In tears, I headed down the aisle to my pastor. He asked, "why did you come?"

"I wanted to be saved."

Do you understand that you are a sinner? Yessss (sniffle).

Do you understand the penalty for your sins? Yes

Do you understand the way to be saved is to repent of your sin and trust Jesus to save you? Yes.

Do you trust him for your salvation? Yes.

Go sit down over there.

There was no Roman Road, no Sinner's Prayer, only probing questions.

Apparently my pastor was satisfied with the answers.

He baptized me a week later.

Maybe that's all that's needed, for the pastor to ask probing questions to ascertain understanding. Maybe he'll get the right answers. But maybe he'll get the wrong answers. But he needs to ask the questions. And he ought not to proceed until he is satisfied with the answers.

 

After church one Sunday, my pastor came to me accompanied by two young girls, around 10 or 11 years old.

"Talk to them," he said.

When I sat down with them, they told me "we want to be baptized."

So, I asked them the questions my pastor had asked me when I was nine years old. See previous post #45.

It quickly became clear that they had no clue about spiritual things. A friend of theirs had been baptized some time earlier, and they thought it was a neat thing to do. They were not under conviction, and no real understanding of being lost.

I explained it all to them, but it was obvious that they were not ready. And I relayed that to my pastor.

If we're willing to do that with children, why shouldn't we do that with adults?

 

I was a part of a church (before the one I describe above) where baptizing people was a part of their status amongst other churches. They were proud of the fact that they baptized over 300 a year, but weirdly the church never really seemed to grow once it got to a certain point.

Desiring to serve in some capacity, I got involved with the baptismal team. I came to the conclusion that the only requirement in that church was to ask... Not that a lot of the ones being baptized were not saved -- the evidence for their salvation was everywhere, especially that look of inexpressible joy that comes from knowing the Lord when one comes up out of the water -- but a lot were doing so because it was what one did when you reach a certain age and there was certainly no fruits of a repentant and regenerated life evident. Even to cursing because the water was too cold or that their hair was messed up for the day... :BangHead:

I'm not an advocate of a lengthy time between salvation and baptism, but I do want to make sure there is an understanding and a redemptive testimony before submitting one to the ordinance.

A side question: How many persons have this group heard who have shared a testimony of a prior baptism before actually coming to a true faith in Christ?

I've heard hundreds...

 

Tom,
Great testimony! We go even farther with children. They have to speak with their SS teachers or children's church worker. They must talk to our Children's ministry leader. Then they get to me and we ask those same questions, but they are not so leading. They have to be able to say why they are coming. But that is because children can come because they see others doing it.

But the question was about adults. When we speak to someone about salvation, we talk about sin, judgment and repentence. I understand that many just ask people to go through the Romans Road, say yes to a few questions and pray the "sinner's prayer".

We believe that baptism after salvation is a step of obedience to the command and example of Christ. Do we stop them from other steps of obedience because they haven't learned enough? "You can't go to church until you show you're really changed your life." or, even worse, "You can't give money until you've shown a changed life?" We come very close to saying that baptism is only for those who are good enough to be baptized. If baptism is a picture of what happened to me at salvation - identification with Christ's death, burial and resurrection - then shouldn't it be done like salvation - by grace apart form works?

 

On of the most poignant pictures of the process of baptism in the NT is the Ethiopian Eunuch baptized by Phillip.

Acts 8:30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
31 And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this: "Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter and like a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opens not his mouth.
33 In his humiliation justice was denied him. Who can describe his generation? For his life is taken away from the earth."
34 And the eunuch said to Philip, "About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?"
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus.
36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?" ​

Phillip very pointedly asks this individual if he "understands". He does not. He asks explanation. Phillip counsels him with the gospel. By context, much is said between them that is not recorded in the Scriptures, but we know the message of the gospel from other places, so we know what was said. At the point of understanding (which obviously included a discussion about the need to follow the Lord in baptism, because the Ethiopian asked for something he could not know about unless told) the act of baptism happened.

Again, this didn't have to drag out for a long time, but it DID require some grasp of what was happening, including an understanding of the gospel and an understanding of what baptism meant.

 

One of the challenges is that baptism is not merely an act of obedience. It certainly is an act of obedience, but it is so much more.

Today, many people have the very wrong idea that walking an aisle is the "first, public profession of faith." This idea is hopelessly wrong.

Historically (even with the Ethiopian eunuch), baptism was the first public profession of faith. And, as such, there are some very weighty things to consider:

1. The Ethiopian eunuch was a foreign official who owned Old Testament scrolls. So, he was wealthy and likely a Jewish convert. As a Jewish convert, he had likely been through a proselyte baptism and, therefore, understood the basic idea of baptism.

2. The Eunuch was likely traveling with a large foreign entourage. Therefore, his baptism (in what might have been a deep puddle) was public. What is more, there were people in his own country that would know what he did and that would serve as an on-going testimony to them.

Now, this applies to the modern church in this way:

1. We must be very careful about who we baptize. Why? Because baptism is a sign to the outside world that we are Christians. So, one of the worst things we can do is to baptize someone who will not live like a Christian thereby bringing shame on Christ and His church. Now, of course no one is perfect and we all sin. But, does this person understand repentance--ongoing repentance? Does this person understand that the Christian life is a life of self-sacrifice, taking God's will and His word over our own desires? Is there a demonstration of understanding in his or her actions? Can the fruit of repentance and faith be seen?

2. In the parable of the sower we are given 4 types of soil. We need to ensure, as far as we can (and we're not infallible), that we are dealing with a type-4 person--where the gospel finds good soil and takes root. Why? In addition of the points above, this also is important because we don't want to give someone who is not a true believer the impression that they are a true believer. A proper understanding of baptism reveals that baptism is a (not the) proof of salvation, much like circumcision is a "proof" of being a Jew. We do not want to hand out false-assurances where salvation is concerned.

So, we do not want a type-2 person (rocky ground) where the person has an emotional response and gets baptized immediately and then falls away soon thereafter. The Southern Baptist Convention churches, in particular, have a HUGE problem with baptizing people too quickly. This is why in a denomination that boasts 16 Million members, only 4 Million are ever in church on any given Sunday.

This is one of the reasons that the early church required a new convert to go through the catechumen period of 3 years before they were baptized and admitted to church membership.

We baptize non-believers to our own peril and to the shame of our churches and we bring shame on Christ. Since the name of Christ is at stake far more than a person's salvation (since baptism does not save) it behoves us to make very sure that we are baptizing true believers and only true believers.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Just a thought for those who advocate immediacy...

What is the downside of waiting a bit? Will the person loose their salvation or something? Perhaps fall away from the faith because they've not performed the act of obedience?

Just wondering what is the rationale -- or the fear...

 

Actually, I am going bywhat I see the Scripture saying. The practice of believers seems to be a person gets saved and they get baptized. There's no fear.

I ahve yet to see Scripture to support the idea of waiting.

 

No, it doesn't require immediate, nor does it prohibit one. That's why I don't say anything about one side being wrong.

What I do see is that you are saying it's all one way or another. You either wait or as soon as someone prays a prayer, you rush them into the baptistry. It's not an either or situation.

We speak with people about what salvation means. We don't baptize children immediately. In fact, we have turned children down from being baptized even if their parents are pushing it, if we don't feel they understand. I've even told adults that I won't baptize them if they are seemingly just saying what I want to hear.

We say alot about wanting to have a New Testament church. I just see in Scripture that when I am convinced the person has experienced regeneration in their life that they ought to be baptized. We don't ask them to wait for any other step of obedience. We don't ask them to wait until they know more to go out and witness to someone. We don't ask them to wait until they come to some point where we are satisfied with their salvation to give or come to church or pray or read the Bible.

 

I would modify this to say that we baptize non-believers at THEIR peril since all we have to go on is what they tell us. We act on that and they are responsible to God for what they tell us being the truth.

 

You are correct, it is to their peril. However, that does not relieve the church from responsibility for not caring to examine them fully.

The Archangel

 

I am in full agreement on this.

 

I go back to what I said originally. When they are ready, they come tome and tell my why they should be baptized. The onus is on them, not me or the church.

I treat the Lord's table much the same. I make the announcement,,as baptized believers we will partake of the elements.........If someone sits at the table who shouldn't, that is up to them, I never policed the table.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Jim, my church doesn't really police the Lord's table, either, but I wish it did.

 

It's a question for another thread but how to do that is difficult. We talk about who can come to the Lord's Supper and spend time talking about not only salvation and following the Lord in baptism, but also other fellowship destroying sins that need to be confessed. Even if you limit it to church members - which we don't - you will still get those who just stay no matter what and those members who are away from the Lord.