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Waldes of Lyons' Profession of Faith

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by CarpentersApprentice, Sep 28, 2007.

  1. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    Ah, I'm a few hours ahead of you; it's 2-30pm here. Anyway, following your numbering:-

    1. On what basis do you claim that your interpretation of 'water' as not pertaining to baptism is correct?

    2. "Baptism of desire", anyone?

    3. Many people who have the correct understanding of water as meaning water baptism are indeed born again and are as much Christians as you.
     
  2. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    I have little information about the documents of 1120 and 1655 respecitvely, or whether Morland brought the documents of 1120 in 1655 ( maybe around 1648-1655)

    Read the followings:

    Fortunately, an ancient confession of the Waldenses, dated about 1120 A.D. by Morland, contains an unequivocal rejection of the doctrine of baptismal regeneration, which clearly distinguishes them from both Catholics and Campbellites on that point

    The 1655 Confession of the Reformed Churches of Piedmont contains this ringing affirmation of justification by faith:


    Both of them from the same source.

    http://www.geocities.com/I_hate_spammers/waldenses2.html

    In case of the Nobla Leycon, the contents have the statement like " it has passed 1100 years since the coming of the Lord..."
     
  3. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    But the Reformed Churches of Piedmont were paedo-baptist by the 1650s, in fact by the 1550s.
     
  4. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Already explained.

    I don't understand your question.

    No, I disagree. They do not understand what is the Truth of Christian Faith. It is more erraneous than the Infant Baptism itself, and Infant Baptism is one of its fruits. Baptismal Regeneration is a huge error misleading billions of people to run on the highway to the destruction.
    I already mentioned 2 cases, Robber at the Cross adn Cornellius.
    I already mentioned, the case of John Wesley, he was saved on May 24, 1738 after he went to Georgia on missionary, after many years in COE.
    Pascal was the same, Harry Ironside confessed the same, Martin Luther was saved before 1517 ( I guess it was 1515). Waldensians knew this, Albigenes knew this.

    I know there are many people who downplay such spiritual experiences, but we can see that their lives were changed after such experiences. Before such experience, they were just like many other religious people. But as soon as they received the Holy Spirit on a certain date, at a certain time, they started to change in their life style, in spending time for the Bible reading etc. That's the case with myself too. I was quite a good, devout Christian before I was born again. I defended against any atheists, against Jehovah's witnesses, but all the time postponed reading the Bible. Then, after I was born again, Bible reading has become my top priority and started trying to conform my life to the Bible teachings.
    I can clearly remember the huge difference and change of my life since the time of my being born again. But many people replace such spiritual change with the ritual process and formality, then follow the absolute majority running on the Borad Way to the Destruction ( Mt 7).
     
  5. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Anyone after 1500 is not important in this discussion. But there is a lot of controversy on what was their actual practices. Some say that Waldensians just followed the Infant Baptism only superficially.
     
  6. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    I think Matt is referring to the Roman Catholic doctrine that says there are three kinds of baptism: Water baptism, "baptism of desire", and "baptism of blood". The online "Catholic Encyclpedia says of the Baptism of desire:
    The baptism of desire (baptismus flaminis) is a perfect contrition of heart, and every act of perfect charity or pure love of God which contains, at least implicitly, a desire (votum) of baptism. The Latin word flamen is used because Flamen is a name for the Holy Ghost, Whose special office it is to move the heart to loveGod and to conceive penitence for sin.

    The same source says of the baptism of blood:
    The baptism of blood (baptismus sanquinis) is the obtaining of the grace of justification by suffering martyrdom for the faith of Christ. The term "washing of blood" (lavacrum sanguinis) is used by Tertullian (De Bapt., xvi) to distinguish this species of regeneration from the "washing of water" (lavacrum aquæ). "We have a second washing", he says "which is one and the same [with the first], namely the washing of blood." St. Cyprian (Ep. lxxiii) speaks of "the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood" (sanguinis baptismus). St. Augustine (De Civ. Dei, XIII, vii) says: "When any die for the confession of Christ without having received the washing of regeneration, it avails as much for the remission of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism."

     
  7. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    No.

    See David's description which, btw, is not confined to Catholicism



    And so we're back to your claim to be infallible. No thanks.
     
  8. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Read them again.

    All based on the infallibility of your questions, on the fallibility of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
     
  9. CarpentersApprentice

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    Eliyahu,

    The web sites you noted are secondary sources talking about "The Noble Lesson."

    I would like to know which actual English translation of "The Noble Lesson" you are referencing to come to your conclusions.

    Thanks,

    CA
     
  10. CarpentersApprentice

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    Hi David,

    I agree.

    I'm just trying to clarify - if we leave off discussing early Baptists and pick up discussing early believers (as Eliyahu did) - how do the Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans and Anglicans fit into the Waldensian equasion? Since, up to then it was Waldensian = Baptist. (And we all know that on many particulars Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans and Anglicans do believe differently.)

    Eliyahu brought up the Waldensian poem, The Noble Lesson. I do not see anything in this poem that is distinctly Baptist, but Eliyahu indicated that this poem was evidence of early "believers."

    If, in fact, there is nothing particularly Baptist about the poem, could it not be that the poem is actually evidence of early Presbyterians, or Lutherans?

    (Hope this is not too convoluted.)

    CA
     
  11. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    I think you do not read my posts correctly.

    For your understanding, let me repeat the previous post again:

    ***************** Pos#72 *****************

    In the next posts I will inform you about Nobla Leycon etc.

    [FONT=&#48148]But please don't misunderstand that I claimed the very much knowledge about them. Read the previous posts of mine about them as follows:[/FONT]


    [FONT=&#48148]Post #58[/FONT]
    [FONT=&#48148]I heard there is a prime source of Leonists or Lyonese believers which I have not obtained, but is quite antique as much as Bazaar Heraclides ( 1895) Key of Truth( 1895), and as this Reinerius report. I will pursue it someday.

    [FONT=바탕]63[/FONT]
    4) Likewise, there is one more antique book for Albigenes ( maybe even for Petrobrusians) in French which is about the Believers in Lyon, about which I have not got the details

    67
    I remember the title of the Book was not this ( Nobla Leycon) but some may have attached different names, depending on the languages. I am not sure this is the very one that I mentioned, either.


    I cannot recall the exact title of the documents but understand there is an antique documents covering the Lyonese believers.

    HIstory is not my urgent project and therefore I postpone the lengthy work. But it doesn't mean that I do not have the historical views correctly. God teaches me in all the Truth including what happened in the past.[/FONT]


    Do you know why I say this?

    I don't rely on or trust many of the articles and even the translations of any prime sources, because they need a lot of process of the authentication and verification. In this case I have not read any translation of it! I just told you that I would pursue it.

    I know those are the secondary sources. Already, I realized that I should not trust the translation of Key Truth, though I possess a copy of it.
     
    #91 Eliyahu, Oct 9, 2007
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2007
  12. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Thank you very much for the help, for both articles.

    As for the second article, I am quite doubtful about the correctness of the statement.

    Apparently I can read the Salvation of the Catholicism, which is based on the Works.

    If anyone could martyr for the Lord, that person was already saved before, not by the blood of his or her own martyrdom.
    Also, the Salvation has nothing to do with Baptism. Baptism is done after one is saved already. Baptism is not pre-requisite for the Salvation as we see the case of Robber at the Cross. However, Salvation is pre-requisite for the Baptism.

    I can see the dependance on the human works in the statements, for the salvation.
     
  13. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Matt,

    Let me show you how much serious problem the Baptismal Regeneration has.

    I believe this is the real story of what happened in Roman Empire.

    A general commanding a Legion ( 6000 soldiers' brigade) carefully noticed the life of the Christian believers and found their life style is sound and morally better. Then he decided to become a Christian. It was during the era of no persecution against Christians. Then he visited a bishop in the region, then he was baptised by him. Thereafter, as he becomes powerful in his position, he invited the bishop to the army, then gathered 6000 soldiers on the ground. He explained about the Christian truth, then the necessity for the Baptism. the General asked the questions to the soldiers, "Do you believe in Jesus Christ?" Yes, Sir" Nobody dared to say " NO"
    "Is anyone who doesn't want to get baptized?" Nooobody answered No.

    Then the Bishop brought a bucket of water, then sprinkled the water with the brush, onto the foreheads of the soldiers.

    After the Baptism, the general and the soldiers shouted Halleluja, Halleluja.
    The general, bishop, officers said it was a great ministry, more people than the evangelism in Acts 2 returned to the Lord, 6000, more than 3,000 people in Acts 2, returned to the Lord, in a shorter time !

    Soldiers were happy too, because they realized that they become nice Christians without suffering much difficulty or any expense. They could attach a certain moral license without very much expense. They become devout Christians ! Halleluja ! God is great! " we can learn the Christian truth, later on !" "Everybody is born again by Baptism!"

    What do you think about this story? Would you say that I am jealous and destroying the good works of the Evengelism ?

    This is how Roman Catholic grew up, tolerating the apostasies, bringing the unbelievers into the church by the Baptismal Regeneration.
     
    #93 Eliyahu, Oct 9, 2007
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2007
  14. Agnus_Dei

    Agnus_Dei New Member

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    If the story is true is irreverent, but what we can gather from the story is that A) the soldiers were taught the Christian truth…or evangelized B) they were then asked if they believed in Christ… C) then those that believed were given the opportunity to be Baptized.

    What’s the problem here?

    In a Baptist Church, you A) hear the Gospel, then B) asked to respond by accepting Christ, by repeating a formulated prayer then C) before you can be a member of the church you have to be Baptized, which can be that evening or afternoon.
    -
     
  15. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    We don't know how much truthful the Christian truth preached to them was. It might have not been the Truth necessarily but "so-called truth"
    There was a notion that the millions of people can be saved by the baptism. Baptism is the visual, human work though it reflect the spiritual, invisible work by the Holy Spirit. It should not precede and supersede the God's Work.
    Before the Baptism, individual testimony and hearing process is important as we read acts 8:37- about the Eunuch.
    You may be familiar with such practice, but I am not.
     
  16. CarpentersApprentice

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    Hold on a minute. I thought we already established that, per this article, the 1120 confession was a forgery:

    On the Poems of the Poor of Lyons in the British Magazine, December 1, 1840.

    CA
     
  17. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    "David's" is much shorter than "The online "Catholic Encyclopedia's", but the latter is more accurate. (Not complaining, Matt; it did occur in my message).
     
  18. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    I hope that neither Eliyahu nor anyone else thought that by quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia article, I was endorsing its contents. You (Eliyahu) say that you are doubtful about the correctness of "baptism of blood". So am I. But I also disagree with "baptism of intent", because it demands perfect contrition, perfect charity, and pure love of God. How can any sinner, even a saved sinner, exhibit those things?
     
  19. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    There may be local baptist churches that believe a person becomes a Christian just by repeated a set of words (or "formulated prayer") as you put it), but that is not usual, in my experience. Yes, membership of a baptist church follows baptism as a believer, and yes, that baptism could occur the same day the person is converted. But whether it's later the same day, or some time after the person's conversion, the church will do its best to make sure that the person really has been converted, as Philip did before he baptized the Ethiopian eunuch. Acts 8.30-37:


    30
    So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this: "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He opened not His mouth. 33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away, And who will declare His generation? For His life is taken from the earth." 34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, "I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?" 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?" 37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
    We are told there that Philip explained to him about Jesus - he "preached Jesus to him". When the man asked for baptism, Philip told him that he could be baptised if he believed "with all his heart".
     
  20. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    >>>>>>Brief interruption here<<<<<<




    It just amazes me the lengths that people will go to in order to *attempt* to disprove that there has always been Gods true church on earth, seperate from the death clutches of Rome.

    For centuries Rome tried to murder them all, now the attempt is made to change history.

    Oh well. So it goes.




    >>>>>>End of interruption<<<<<<<<

    ....Carry on! :wavey:

    Mike
     
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