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Walter Lollard, The Waldensians & William Tyndale

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by JohnBaptistHenry, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. JohnBaptistHenry

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    Walter Lollard, The Waldensians & William Tyndale
    By John Henry
    May 18, 2015​

    Psalm 12:6-7: "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

    WALTER LOLLARD:

    Joshua Thomas (1719-1797), who was Pastor of the Church in Olchon Valley, Wales from 1746-1754, in his book "The American Baptist Heritage in Wales" traces the American church to its roots in Olchon and details the existence of the ancient Christian enclave there citing evidence going back to the 6th century. The Waldesian preacher, Walter Lollard came from Germany into England in 1315 AD, and Pastor Thomas believed that Lollard was given refuge in Olchon around that time. Thomas notes that Lollard was aware of the existence of Olchon before arriving in Wales.

    Thomas Crosby in his "History of the English Baptists" of 1738 also records Walter Lollard residing in Britain for some period of time. "In the time of Edward II, about the year 1315 Walter Lollard, a German Baptist preacher, a man of great renown among the Waldenses, came into England; he spread their doctrines very much in these parts, so that afterwards they went by the name Lollards." Henry Knighton (d. 1396), the English chronicler, says: "More than one-half of the people of England, in afew years, became Lollards" (Knighton, col. 2664). Upon returning to Europe, Walter Lollard was captured by the Catholics and was burned alive, in Cologne, Germany in 1322.

    THE WALDENSIANS:

    Dr. Floyd Jones writes: "According to Beza [1519-1605], this [Waldensian] Church was formed about 120 A.D. Its Latin Bible (the 'Italic' or 'Itala') which represents the Received Text (Syrian) was translated from the Greek not later than 157 A.D. It is recognized that Jerome's Vulgate is the 'Itala' (the 'Old Latin') with the readings of the Received Text removed. The leadership of the Reformation German, French and English was convinced that the Received Text (TR) was the genuine New Testament, 'not only because of its own irresistible history and internal evidence, but also because it matched with the Received Text which in Waldensian form had come down from the days of the apostles.' In producing his translation Luther referred to the Tepl ms which agreed with the 'Old Latin' version that was anterior to Jerome. This Tepl ms represented a translation of the Waldensian Bible into the German dialect which was spoken before the time of the Reformation. This undoubtedly was the reason the Roman Church reproved Luther for 'following the Waldenses'. Moreover, the translators of 1611 had before them four Bibles which had come under Waldensian influences: the Dioadati in Italian, the Olivetan in French, the Lutheran in German, and the Genevan in English. Strong evidence exists that they also had access to at least six Waldensian Bibles written in the old Waldensian vernacular." (Jones, Floyd Nolan; Which Version is the Bible?, p. 168, 1999)

    WILLIAM TYNDALE:

    William Tyndale (1494-1536) was born near in South Wales, though he grew up in Gloucestershire. The Tyndale family name is associated with the Olchon Valley, a stronghold for Baptist churches. According to Davis in History of the Welsh Baptists, Llewellyn Tyndale and Hezekiah Tyndale were members of the Baptist church at nearby Abergaverney. Certainly in his writings Tyndale expresses Baptist views using Baptist terms, such as "elder" instead of "Bishop" and recognizes clergy by the offices of "pastor" and "deacon." He challenged clerical celibacy. Tyndale was particularly eloquent in expressing the Biblical doctrine of baptism held by Baptist. He described the ordinance as "the sign of repentance ... and new birth." As Baptists do, he identified baptism primarily with repentance: "baptism is a sign of repentance signifying that I must repent of evil, and believe to be saved ... by the blood of Christ." Tyndale denied the necessity of baptism for adult salvation, and said that "the infants that die unbaptized of us Christians are in as good case as those that die baptized." He pointed out that the main function of baptism is that of "testifying and exhibiting to our senses the promises signified." William Tyndale believed that the Holy Spirit does not work in the water, but "accompanieth the preaching of faith, and with the word of faith, entereth the heart and purgeth it." Tyndale also described baptism as "dipping or plunging [not pouring or sprinkling] as the true sign." (Baptism, Bromiley, pp. 11, 25, 56, 149, 179, 192; Tyndale, British Reformers Series, p. 407; Tyndale, Parker Society Series, III, p. 171; Tyndale, Parker Society Series, I, pp. 350-351, 357, 423-424)

    In 1536 Tyndale was convicted of heresy by the pope for his Bible translation work. His last words were, "Lord open the king of England's eyes." Tyndale's prayer was fulfilled by two kings: Just 2 years later King Henry the VIII authorized the Great Bible and 75 years later King James authorize the Bible that bears his name.

    [​IMG]
    In 1536 Tyndale was convicted of heresy by the pope for his Bible translation work. His last words were, "Lord open the king of England's eyes." Tyndale's prayer was fulfilled by two kings: Just 2 years later King Henry the VIII authorized the Great Bible and 75 years later King James authorize the Bible that bears his name.
    [​IMG]
    The King James Bible is the final translation, the 7th, that began with Tyndale's Bible, and is about 80% Tyndale's own work.

    "The kings heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." (Proverbs 21:1)

    "Where the word of a king is, there is power: and who may say unto him, What doest thou?" (Ecclesiastes 8:4)

    The KJV is the 7th English Bible translation from the original tongues. It is the purification of William Tyndale's translation and is largely his work. The first 6 translations were consulted in it's translation as commanded by King James.

    1. William Tyndale - 1526-1536
    2. Myles Coverdale - 1535
    3. John Rodgers - 1537 (Rodgers used the pseudonym: Matthew)
    4. Great Bible - 1539 (Coverdale revision)
    5. Geneva Bible - 1557 (Coverdale & 5 others)
    6. Bishops' Bible - 1572 (Matthew Parker and other bishops)
    7. King James Bible - 1611 (47 translators who were expert in the original languages completed the work.)
     
    #1 JohnBaptistHenry, Apr 5, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
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  2. reformed_baptist

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    What actual evidence is there for the existence of Walter Lollard?

    Where are copies of his extent writings to be found that demonstrate he was baptist in theology?

    Furthermore, why would the enemies of Wycliffe and his followers label them 'Lollards' if that term was synonymous with baptists, Wycliffe remained paedobaptist all his life?
     
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  3. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Mosheim mentions the existence of a Walter Lolhard. But he refers to a man named Walter who was a Lolhard/Lollard -- rather than his surname. This Walter Lollard and was burned to death at Cologne in the 1370s. (An Ecclesiastical History, Ancient and Modern, Volume III, pp. 317, 337)

    T. J. van Braght in Martyr's Mirror mentions a Waldensean teacher called Lolhard who was martyred in Austria in 1315, but no first name is given.
     
  4. reformed_baptist

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    So, two different men who died around 60-70 years apart one called Lolhard another called Walter who might or might not have been related and who might or might not have shared the same theology - that isn't evidence that is clutching at straws. the people it will persuade are those already convinced.

    Now, onto the other questions.

    Can you provide me with links to this man's extant writings so that I determine for myself his baptist beliefs? If that isn't possible can you then provide me with references to those who have studied and properly interacted with this Walter's teachings (if there is no primary source, I will make do with a secondary one)?
     
  5. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    No, I cannot and never had any intention to do so. I claimed no writings for Walter Lolhard or that he had Baptist beliefs -- simply that someone else had referenced a "Walter Lolhard" (particularly Mosheim). If you read the link on Mosheim, I think you will find that he also thought there were presumptions about him not based on the limited information that existed -- e.g. that Walter Lolhard or Lollard was a proper name.

    My opinion -- and that is all is it -- is that there was someone named Walter who was a Lollard, as well as some others about whom similar stories were passed down and they may have been conflated into one individual over the years in transmission of the stories.
     
  6. reformed_baptist

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    So my point still stands that the argument put forward by the OP is baseless assumption rather then serious historical inquiry - that is all I am trying to establish.
     
  7. JohnBaptistHenry

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    Concerning evidence for the existence of Walter Lollard, below I am quoting from my 2012 article, THE DERIVATIVE INSPIRATION OF THE KING JAMES BIBLE (see note 2 below):

    "The Hampton Court Conference of January 1604 was a meeting called by King James in response to a petition for reform by 1000 Puritan ministers called the Millenary Petition. On the second day of the Conference '... the idea for the Authorized Version was born. The Puritan, Dr. Rainolds, proposed that a new translation of the Bible be undertaken. According to the 'official' account: '... [Rainolds] moved his majesty that there might be a new translation of the Bible, because those which were allowed in the reign of king Henry the Eighth and Edward the Sixth were corrupt and not answerable to the truth of the original.' [1] The Puritans had their origin with the Lollards, named for the Waldensian preacher, Walter Lollard, a Dutchman, who came into England preaching the Gospel of Christ in the reign of Edward III (r. 1327-1377). Henry Knighton (d 1396), the English chronicler, wrote: 'More than one-half of the people of England, in a few years, became Lollards.'

    "Walter Lollard was burnt for his faith at Cologne. [2] We can therefore see the Waldensian connection with the Lollards who also rejected infant baptism, and Puritans. The Waldensian were the original Puritans who were branded as Anabaptists by Rome. They protected the pure Word of God through the centuries from the time of the apostles of Jesus Christ. They planted scriptural local self governing churches, and were never in fellowship with Rome, and therefore were not Protestants. The Puritans of England later reverted back to infant baptism and persecuted Baptists in early America."

    NOTES:

    1. Vance, Laurence M., The King James Translators, (July/Sept. 2004). Also see Todd, John Henry, A Vindication of our Authorized Translation and Translators of the Bible (1819); Todd, John Henry, An Authentic Account of Our Authorized Translation of the Holy Bible, and of the Translators: with Testimonies to the Excellence of the Translation (1834); McClure, Alexander, The Translators Revived (1858); Paine, Gustavus, The Learned Men (1959), reissued in 1977 as The Men Behind the King James Version; Opfell, Olga, The King James Bible Translators (1982); Nicolson, Adam, God’s Secretaries (2003).

    2. John T. Christian in his A History of the Baptists, Vol. I, Chap. XIV, pp. 173, 183 says: "'I have seen enough to convince me that the present English dissenters, contending for the sufficiency of Scripture and for primitive Christian liberty to judge of its meaning, may be traced back in authentic manuscripts to the nonconformists; to the Puritans; to the Lollards; to the Valdenses; to the Albigenses; and, I suppose, through Paulicians and others, to the apostles.' ... Walter Lollard, a Dutchman, of remarkable eloquence, came, according to Fuller, into England, in the reign of Edward III., 'from among the Waldenses, among whom he was a great bard or pastor.' His followers rapidly increased so that Abelard declared 'our age is imperiled by heretics, that there seems to be no footing left for the true faith.' Knighton, the English chronicler, says: 'More than one-half of the people of England, in a few years, became Lollards' (Knighton, col. 2664)."
     
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