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War of Northern Aggression

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by agedman, Jan 25, 2012.

  1. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    Mat 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
    Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
    Mat 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
    Mat 22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
    Mat 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
    Mat 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
    Mat 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
    Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
    Mat 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

    Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
    Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


    Hmm. Seems like people today mistake "the prince that shall come" as being different from "Messiah the prince." Also, the idea of a literal, earthly kingdom being "offered" to ethnic Jews falls short when Jesus Himself predicts the utter failure of ethnic Israel from the beginning. "The children of the kingdom" are doomed, and "many shall come from the east and west" and find their place in the kingdom.

    Mar 12:1 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.
    Mar 12:2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.
    Mar 12:3 And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty.
    Mar 12:4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled.
    Mar 12:5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some.
    Mar 12:6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.
    Mar 12:7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.
    Mar 12:8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.
    Mar 12:9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.
    Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
    Mar 12:11 This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

    Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he [Abraham] should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
    Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

    Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
    Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
    Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
    Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
    Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
    Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
    Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


    How. Much. Clearer. Can. It. Get?!

    Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
    Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
    Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
    Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
    Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


    The "church" is clearly NOT a "parenthesis" in the so-called "kingdom" program. It is the VERY fulfillment of it. Ethnic Israel was prophesied to reject their Messiah in large part, and Gentiles were prophesied to come to Christ (Isaiah 11:10). There is neither Jew nor Greek, period. Not, just now, but FOREVER. The promise has always been in Christ, the Seed, and the promise was that all would be blessed with Abraham through faith.

    What did Peter observe with the Cornelius incident?

    Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


    You have got to be kidding me if you think this equality is only temporary and then God will "return" to being a "respecter of persons."

    Jesus told His disciples at the Great Commission to "go ye into all the world." The disciples basically focused on national Israel. The Spirit led Philip to the Ethiopian eunuch, and then Peter to Cornelius to get into their thick skulls that world means "world." ;)
     
  2. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    God always had BOTH isreal and the Church in His plans!

    jewish people were established under Old Covenant relationship, Church in the New..

    God knew all but faithful remnant would reject jesus as messiah, so the Church was to be brough tin at that time...

    Rightnow in Age of grace dispensation, at time of Second Coming will be in Kingdom stage and national israel being reborn!
     
  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I hope that had you done so, you would have explained why there are so many exhortations in the NT to watch.

    To be sure you can look at fulfilled prophecy. I think Pink said that there are nearly 40 of them fulfilled at the cross. And for sure we can see the Wicked Vinedressers and our Lord's prophecy of Matt 24:2 fulfilled in AD 70.
    I do, but it's not all I want to look at.
    I agree with you about the people who spend all their time getting their eschatology out of the daily newspapers, but the 1st Century Christians were eagerly awaiting, longing for and loving the return of Christ. Do you really think they were eagerly awaiting, longing for and loving tens of thousands of Jews being killed in AD 70? If the Return of Christ was their 'Blessed Hope' why isn't it ours?

    Steve
     
  4. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    You seem to be a "Progressive Dispensationalist," which is closer to what I believe. I am used to dealing with hyperdispensationalists who militantly assert a rigid eternal dualism between Israel and the Church. They deny that the church has anything whatsoever to do with the New Covenant and believe that the church started with Paul's calling.

    If you believe there is an ontological overlap between "Israel" and "the Church," you are on the right track.
     
  5. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    believe that the Lord establish under Old Covenant national Isreal, and that he promised blessings to both physical and spitiual descendants of Abraham!

    Right now, since day of pentacost, been in dispensation of Grace under new Covenant, so both jews/gentiles called out/elected by him into the Church, can even call that entity "spritual isreal", but also need to ralise that nationalisreal will be getting their promises made to them in time of Millinium, under the rule on earth of the jewish messiah Jesus Christ!
     
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Another quick thought. It is the fact that so much prophecy has been fulfilled that should give us confidence that the Lord Jesus will return as promised.

    Steve
     
  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    It is certainly good to look back!

    And it is good in helping us remain focused upon the Christ who fulfilled such promises in which our focus must remain.



    "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds."
     
  8. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    Would you consider yourself an "historic premillenialist" or a "covenant premillenialist"?
     
  9. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    pre trib dispy, just more in the progressive Dispy camp!

    Not as hard definition between Isreal/Church as classic dispy see it, but still see isreal as nation Ethnic jewish peoples/nation, and hold to pre trib rature!
     
  10. AresMan

    AresMan Active Member
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    So, in other words, there is a "progressive" organic (or ontological) relationship between Israel and the Church. It is just an issue of nominal covenant relationship and ethnic preeminence.

    Old Covenant - geopolitical, mostly Jews
    New Covenant - diaspora, mostly Gentiles
    kingdom - geopolitical, mostly Jews, but more Gentiles than in Old Covenant.


    Is this what you believe?
     
  11. DaChaser1

    DaChaser1 New Member

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    believe that underold Covenant relationship, God chose out national Isreal/ethnic jewish peoples to have a personal relationship with, and gentiles "grafted" in IF they chose to follow hebrew customs and the God of the hebrews!

    New Covenant as God restablishing personal relation NOT with individual nation and One race of peoples as in OT, but in Church both jews/gentiles saved and one peoples of God now in this current age of grace

    end times, after rapture of Church, God brings to earth via second coming of Jesus the kingdom of god, and the jewish people alive at that time will see national Isreal reborn as Spiritual Isreal, that the nation will be what God had asked them to be!

    Hold to all of classic dispy as regards timing of events,, but NOT holding to strict seperation of OT Isreal NT Church being totally dinstinct as some promises made by God to isreal was shared by the Church, some still distinctly isreal!

    there are 2 seperate Covenants, BOTH part of Plans of God, its just that the Church Age of today has jews/Gentile both in Body of Christ/Church, while when jesus returns, physical Kingdom upon earth, and jewish nation/peoples reborn at that time, "spiritual Isreal!"

    Does this help?
     
    #71 DaChaser1, Feb 3, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 3, 2012
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