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Was Death for Man Only Spiritual in Genesis?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Marcia, Dec 14, 2009.

?
  1. It was spiritual only

    2 vote(s)
    8.3%
  2. It was physical only

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. It was both spiritual and physical

    19 vote(s)
    79.2%
  4. I'm not sure

    3 vote(s)
    12.5%
  5. Other (please explain)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Darren,

    I am not sure everyone is using the verse as you suggest. I am not. When you look at Romans 5, and verse 12, it certainly is a passage concerning mankind. The context and focus of the chapter is Christ's redemption of sinful man.

    But when I do read verse 12, it tells me that sin came into the world by one man, and death by sin. What many of us are concluding is that prior to that man's disobedience, sin was not in the world, and so neither was death.

    Can this death and non-death only be with mankind? Yes, it's possible. I am not convinced that would be the case.
     
  2. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Marcia:

    Re ur post#18, Isaiah was pointing out that on that day, fear and hostility, negative feelings that came along with sin and replaced the positive qualities of innocence and trust will be restored.

    Just my own two cents' worth.
     
  3. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    I want to add this bit from John Calvin. I always appreciate this about his writings, what little I have read...

    The area that I emboldened I think we should all do well to take notice of. And I think it works the other way too. The Bible tells me sin, and hence corruption, came into the world by one man's disobedience, and death by that sin.

    We know and do not argue the effect this has had on mankind. We also all agree that the land itself is cursed because of Adam's sin, as punishment to him. And we all know and agree that in the age to come the curse is removed, there is no more death, decay, pain, sorrow, crying, or corruption. It is a happy and joyous estate for man and creation.

    Then as to the details of are plants alive, do animals have the breath of life, and such things...these are not the points of Scripture. Let's try to stick with what the Scripture is actually teaching, even if it doesn't satisfy our curiosities.
     
  4. Darrenss1

    Darrenss1 New Member

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    I know what Paul was referring to, specifically man, man had not sinned, therefore there was no sin in the earth, therefore man was not subject to death until Adam sinned. Nothing complicated about that at all, sport.

    Darren
     
  5. Darrenss1

    Darrenss1 New Member

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    There is nothing in the statement that says that being cursed introduced death into the earth to all NON human life. The earth was made for man so everything done to all the earth was as a consequence of Adam's sin, that did not mean that ALL life was created immortal and could not die even if by accident. So if Adam accident stepped on an ant the ant could not die, the ant was immortal.

    Darren
     
  6. Darrenss1

    Darrenss1 New Member

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    My point is in Romans Paul uses the word world 12 times, 3 of the 12 the word world is used in the broader context, the rest of the time "World" means mankind, as it does in the context of Romans 5:12-13.

    Darren
     
  7. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    So you don't take this literally?
    I do.
     
  8. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    And there is nothing there that says death was not introduced to non-human life. And I think Rom. 8 indicates that death and decay to creation was introduced through man's sin. Since we see no death of anything before sin, and since there is no strong indication that there was death before sin, then it is reasonable to conclude, esp. based on Romans 8, that death was part of the curse on creation.
     
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Then why the long tirade?
     
  10. Darrenss1

    Darrenss1 New Member

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    Somewhere out of this short statement you get, all life on earth could not die until Adam sinned? Huh?

    Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
    8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

    This is allegorical language, creation doesn't groan, wait, or long, when you speak of creation what example is there? The sky? The earth? Mountains? Creatures? The bible teaches when death came in for mankind but its not a slamdunk to use that same fact for every other life form. Death of mankind is unique from all other life on the planet, howbeit, when MAN'S last enemy is put away, that being DEATH that is not a cased closed reference for ALL other life because all other life has been working on another level to mankind on this planet.

    I forgot to ask, how do you know there was no death of any life on the planet before the fall? You said, "since we see no death of ANYTHING before sin"?? I just love it when things are spoken of as fact without providing a sufficient answer.

    Darren
     
    #30 Darrenss1, Dec 15, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2009
  11. Darrenss1

    Darrenss1 New Member

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    Tirade, interesting choice of word. Feel free to make a case of your own if you like, ad hominems will get you no where. Its called a discussion, that is 2-10 way communication, I have my say just like everyone else does.

    Darren
     
  12. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    What's the "huh" for??

    It's not just that statement; I posted other things supporting this view as well.
    It's not allegorical; it's a metaphor. We've been over this before.


    Where is the scripture supporting this? This is you opinion, something you berated me for. I Cor. 15:26 does not say "man's last enemy." It says "the last enemy." Just saying.


    The Bible does not show us death before sin. You yourself are supporting a view but have offered no scripture for it. I have posted scriptures supporting the view that death came through sin. Others here have done so as well.

    Interesting that you should say this. You are not persuading me to your view with any scripture.
     
  13. Darrenss1

    Darrenss1 New Member

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    Yes but the assumptions are from the starting position. IF death of all life on earth was possible as the default original position (and God said it was good) than the sin of Adam impacts in a slightly different way than to think that NO death existed at all for any life on the planet. The evidence used to prove that death came to all life on the planet from Adams sin to me lacks proper support. That's certainly what I'm seeing here.

    Darren
     
  14. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    As of today I am the 3rd vote for unsure. I still havent had a really good answer as to where the word "death" also includes physical death along with spiritual. As I said onthe other thread. This discussion would be simple if only someone in Scripture would describe what he means by death. In my opinion there is no obvious answer. On a side note I do think brown recluse spiders are a result of sin, but thats just me..
     
  15. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    But that's just speculation. You have offered no biblical evidence for the view that God said physical death was good. The evidence is on the other side, as I said before. It seems you just deny that there is evidence.
     
    #35 Marcia, Dec 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2009
  16. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Death is separation: physical death is separation of the body from the immaterial self (soul/spirit/mind)

    Spiritual death is separation from God.

    If God created and said it was good, I find it hard to believe that included getting old and dying is a good thing. How would Adam and Eve have died? By getting old? How can getting old, which usually involves unpleasant experiences (I hear), be good?

    I still say 1 Cor 15 is another evidence for physical death being overcome as a result of the fall by Jesus' bodily resurrection. It says he conquered death this way - it does not make sense it would just be spiritual death, imo. If it was just spiritual death, as someone else here asked, then why not just a spiritual resurrection?
     
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    My initial post #9.

    Darrenss1 initial response #12.

    To which I responded in Post#19.

    Darrenss1 countered with Post #

    I ask a simple question in post # 29 below regarding the tirade of Darrenss1 in his post #12 which really responded to nothing I said in my initial post #9 but made asinine remarks concerning the preaching the Gospel to animals which I did not even mention.

    To which Darrenss1 responded in post #31.


    So Darreness1 raises the question of “ad hominems”. I assume he is referring to his childish remarks in his post #12 as I pointed out in my post #19.

    From time to time I will present the sequence of posts so folks can understand the remarks that some make. Takes a little extra time but perhaps it is worthwhile.
     
  18. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    I am still not completely decided on this question. I believe Adam and Eve spritually died the very day they sinned. They were afraid of God and ashamed and hid themselves from his presence.

    Now, physical death is more difficult. God does say they will return to the dust from which they were taken in Gen 3:19. But then in Gen 3:22 he says if they were to eat from the tree of life they would live forever. Then God banishes them from the garden and places Cherubims and a flaming sword to keep it. By this action God did prevent them from physically living forever.

    So, I guess I would have to go with both spiritual and physical death. If they had not sinned they would have not spiritually died, and they would have not been banished from the garden and tree of life either.

    I've always wondered about the tree of life. Do you have to eat of it one single time to live forever, or do you have to eat of it continuously? I lean toward continuously because of what is shown in Revelations.

    Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
    2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
    4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
    5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.


    Notice the tree of life bares twelve different types of fruit, a different one for each month. From this I get the impression the tree will be eaten from continuously as opposed to one single time. It also says it's leaves are for the healing of the nations. This makes me wonder if bacteria will still exist. It must, for our physical bodies require bacteria for some functions like digestion. Perhaps our incorruptable bodies will still need the same. And perhaps a person can still injure himself and need healing?

    Notice in verse 3 it says there will be no more curse. I believe this to be the curse of Gen 3:19 where God cursed the ground. I believe when God cursed the ground that death passed upon the physical creation, this is probably where the laws of thermodynamics came into being. If so, theses laws will be reversed and no longer will the creation be subject to aging and death.

    All interesting things to think about, but we will likely never know all the answers till we get there.
     
  19. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4 Member

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    Winman- what is the Tree of Life? maybe this is thread worthy.
     
  20. Darrenss1

    Darrenss1 New Member

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    Excellent comments!! I agree 100%!! :thumbs:

    Darren
     
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