Featured Was it God's will for Adam to Sin ?

Just curious, are you one holding to hyper calvinism then?

 

Being pedestined by God doesn't make man kind falling into sin inevitable or nor does God "set man up to fall". The fall didn't have to happen.

What you seem to fail to see is that no matter what choice man makes God is soveriegn. God isn't relegated to just one decision as is the supposition you are making. Man cannot choose outside God's influence because nothing is outside God's influence. But that doesn't mean God willed man to fall or ordain the fall. Because if he did he would be an evil God. A God who authors sin. A God who tempts man. The scriptures are clear. God cannot sin nor tempt man to sin.

 

What I am saying is that God had both ordained that there would be the messiah to redeem out a chosen group from among sinful humanity,that he would reverse and undo to his glory the fall of BOTH satan and Adam, But that he did NOT direct cause them to sin, as he would NOT be God if he had determined to have them sin in order to get a greater glory from that!

 

I'm trying to break down your first sentence for my understanding. I think I agree with the second.

 

NOTHING happened that was outside the Will of God, its just that he dtermined directly the Cross of the messiah to happen, BEFORE the FALL even happened, but He allowed satan/Adam to make their choices...

 

I hold as you that the Lord had determined to bring Glory to himself By the Cross of Christ, to reddem out a people for his own sake/glory/honor, was predestined even before the Fall to occur...

he still allowed satan and Adam though "free will" to make their choices to sin and rebel against God!

Think we are saying about same thing, just using different wording on it!

 

Let me see if I get this right. God did not will that man would fall. However, God willed that before man was even made that Jesus Christ would be our redeemer? If that is correct then I'm in agreement.

 

DaChaser1,

You do not sound like a Calvinist, not any of the Calvinist points, or even a Lutheran when you say what you do right here. You know that you have admitted that God gave man a choice. That is against Calvinism.

 

Calvinists believe that God ordained sin. Are you publicly recanting your Calvinist beliefs?

 

That isn't what Calvin said

 

God could prevent a sin, or let a sin happen, just as it is to this day. However, concerning Adam and the fall, God knew Adam would sin. God did not make Adam sin. God created Adam with a free will. If we do not have a free will, then what kind of love do you have?

 

Calvinists believe that God is sovereign in a way that God controls EVERYTHING, thus the very sins we do. John Calvin does NOT personally have to say something to make it his belief, because someone does not realize something about their belief, does not make it not so. I am not an Arminiian, but even Arminius did not accept John Calvin's beliefs BECAUSE HIS BELIEFS MAKES GOD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD. We are responsible for our own sins.

 

Calvin certainly did not believe this and neither to many modern calvinists. However, Hypercalvinist do believe as you've suggested.

 

Think that 4 and 5 pointers see this differently, as would also hyper and moderates like myself!

Moderates would see it the Lord caused/determined that the messiah would come, would die on behalf of his own people, to save them from their sins, and would have all creatrion redeened also...

Hypers would see that, and also say that God ordained/caused the fall to happen, that in order to have his amin plan of the Cross be done!

 

Since Jesus was slain prior to the foundation of this age, would that not have required a people that needed saved from sin?

 

note God exist outside of time space therefore if Jesus was slain he was always slain.

 

He also exists within 'time and space.' He knows all things, and is everywhere present at all times. There is no place we can flee from His presence which includes 'time and space.'

He knew all that would take place, and still created.

There is no 'plan B' with God.

 

I agree with that. Doens't changed the fact that if Jesus was slain (no matter when it happened, he was always slain) However, if you go on to say that God willed man to sin or set man up so that it was inevitable that he sin. I disagree with you.

 

There is no way a Calvinist can deny it. Calvinism and any points of Calvinism, whether or not hyper, their beliefs come down to the fact that God is responsible for ALL not believing in Jesus Christ. I will prove this fact to you---Answer this: Do you believe in total depravity? If you say yes, as I know you will because you fought for those beliefs in other threads...you would have to know that with a totally depraved nature, is from a a sovereign God who controls and ordains everything...even the totally depraved nature of man! That is what Calvinists believe, whether they admit it or not. Just like a Catholic arguing to the end that they are not worshiping statues, but merely venerating the "Holy Images."