Was James Written to Believers?

If the book of James was written to believers then it must be stating principles that must be followed by born again believers. Correct? These would also apply to those who wish to become born again believers. Therefore, it's clear that no matter where you side in this debate you come up with the same answer.

 

No. It specifically says the faith CANNOT SAVE HIM. What is it saving them from?

"Empty" faith, is faith that does not save.

ALSO, the text DOES NOT say the man has faith. Specifically, it says "if a man says he has faith". This is someone who "says" they have faith, but it in fact, does not, because he has no works.

The phrases "faith was completed by His works" and "faith without works is meaningless(you word)", means simply this> If I believe in trains, I am going to step off the track. If I smile and stay where I am, I am a hypocrite, giving lipservice "saying" I have faith, but in fact, do not have faith.

 

A rebuke to people who say they have faith, that say they are Christians, and do not and are not.

 

No, they are but living as though they are not. Just follow the context.

 

No, he isn't saying they aren't saved but is correcting them for assuming maybe even teaching that faith is all you have to worry about. It doesn't say they were living lasivious lives nor in a sinful manner (as in committing sin) however they were not living as though their life was not their own.

James is showing the difference between mental assent and true faith, not that they don't 'have' true faith. He is correcting via rebuke not making a statement about their spiritual lives as though they were all unsaved. You miss the whole point of his writting with that understanding.

 

"sode'zo" is actually how the word is "pronounced" (It is not a phonetic spelling.), not how it is "spelled", which was what I was referring to, to correct a possible misunderstanding from my previous post. And I might suggest you consider re-reading page 5 in the Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries, on which is found the "Plan of the Book," a bit more closely, as well.

Before I comment on these four sentences, above, I seem to recall a few statements that you (Havensdad) have made on this thread, that I will now quote. I do hope all will bear with me, as I highlight some things in them, although any capitalization is not my own, but that of the author of the quote.

Speaking of "pet theologies", "artificial limitations", 'changing interpretations', and "agendae" (not to mention a couple or three more ad hominems that I noticed), does this include the Greek language, as well, where you accused me of "talking semantics", an allegation that I do deny, FTR.

I am fully aware of what is the 'root' meaning, of "πιστεύω" or "pisteuō" but unfortunately, I believe you are (hopefully, unintentionally) misrepresenting the case with your statements of:

Not true! You would have been effectively correct, were you to have said "Pistis" (Faith) is what someone has WHEN they "pisteuo" (believe). But I suspect you did not intend to say this latter sentence, at all, you know, "obvious agendae", "pet theologies" and all like that (consistent with your posts), as contrasted to the meanings conveyed by the words themselves.

There is a definite difference, here, between these two above sentences, and in fact, in the briefest of nutshells, this represents the bottom line of difference between "Lordship (or discipleship) Salvation", and "non-Lordship salvation".

To show this let us first look at the various Greek words numbered 3982 and from 4100 - 4104. The "root" word of this group is "πείθω" ("peithō") (3982). The entry is as follows: (although I do not include how the KJV, RV or ASV render the word, preferring to concentrate on the actual meaning, as given by Dr. Strong.): "a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty): "

From this word we get the first 'derived word' (# 4102) - the feminine noun of "πίστις" ("pistis"): " from πείθω (peitho) 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: "

And from "pistis" we then get another verb, #4100 - "πιστεύω" ("pisteuō") "from πίστις (pistis) 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ): "

The first word, is the key word, simply because the others proceed from it. Yet its definition seems to be at variance with the Lordship Salvation view.

One of the 'Straw men' erected by the advocates of Lordship Salvation is that the adherents of "free grace" are preaching "easy believism" by suggesting that "mental assent" is all that is 'necessary' for salvation. Did you happen to notice the definition of 'peitho' is "convince," "pacify," "assent," and "rely"? This is both the Biblical and linguistic "starting point".

The second "pile of straw" that is erected, is that "while we are saved by 'grace alone' (or 'believing alone', or 'faith alone', kinda' depending on who is wording this), this 'faith is never alone'." (I suggest this should be run by Paul, Abraham, and David, among others, as per Rom. 4:1-8, and Tit. 3:5, among other Scritures, regarding justification before God, and righteousness being imputed apart from any works, on our part.)

A third would be the addition of 'qualifiers' that are completely foreign to Scripture, and the language, such as "genuine faith" or "'really' and/or 'truly' believe". None of the above words either need or demand any such as these 'lingual' additions (or 'clarifications') , which are subtle attempts to 'read theology' into the actual words and texts, IMO. There are indeed more straw men I could list, but these should suffice to show the point.

There are two additional related (although much less frequently used) words, namely # 4103 "πιστός" ("pistos"), an adjective: from πείθω - peitho 3982; objectively, trustworthy; subjectively, trustful:
and # 4104, the verb "πιστόω" ("pistoō"): from πιστός - pistos 4103; to assure:

May I repeat this for all BB readers. For the one who advocates "Lordship Salvation", such as Havensdad to whom I am replying, and whose exact quote this is (with one spelling correction), "Pistis" (Faith) is what someone has if they are "pisteuō" (faithful, believing)." (My emphasis.) For the Lordship salvation adherent, in the final analysis, faith (hence salvation) is the result of faithfulness. It is about performance, or is at least "peformance qualified", as the quote well shows.

However, the Biblical language simply does not and will not support this "presupposition", hence according to the language, and for the advocates of "non-Lordship Salvation", such as me- EdSutton, "Pistis" (Faith) is what someone has WHEN they "pisteuō" (believe). For the non-Lordship salvation adherent, faithfulness is the result of faith, or salvation.

Huge difference!

Ed

 

Correction to the above - I left out a piece

"No they are but living as though they are not needing be doing anything after they have believed.. Just follow the context.

 

Well said Ed. Well said.


Stuff like this just amazes me sometimes. It shouldn't but it still does.
I have even heard it stated here on the BB (in the Baptist section) that the book of James is all about a works based salvation and works only, since it is assumed to be the first book written of the NT, just before the church in Acts put it's foot down and basically said no it is salvation by grace not works. However for some unknown reason it was made apart of of NT cannon. This person as well is reformed in thought however many Reformers will disagree with him.

 

Perhaps you need to go back to first year Greek (I do not know if you have actually taken Greek). BOTH are just pronunciations. When you render it into English, it is a phonetic spelling. From the 2008 digital edition...

σώζω

sōzō, sode'-zo

From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, “safe”); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

Notice the little lines above the o's? That indicates a pronunciation as well. "Sode-Zo" gives a more accurate pronunciation. A Zeta makes a "dz" sound, not a simple z.

FYI, "phonetic spelling", means to "spell it how it sounds" or "Spell it like the pronunciation". Perhaps you missed the part in Greek class, where they explained all of these transliterations were approximations, and some people spelled it differently?






In regards to the rest of your post: Salvation is tied both to "faithfulness" and "faith". Example:

Act 16:31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." (Pisteuo')

2Th 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (Pistis)

AGAIN: What will this work-less faith in James 2:14 not save us from? You have still failed to answer the question. Perhaps you are deliberately redirecting the conversation so that you can avoid a question that your theology will not allow you to give an answer to?

 

Ditto. They need to go find another sandbox to play in.



Since we're off topic anyway, did anyone see my baby boy in my avitar? He got married 2 weeks ago. Boy, I'm old. :laugh: