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Was John Calvin saved?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Plain Old Bill, Apr 4, 2007.

  1. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Martin,

    I couldn't agree more with your post #18. :thumbs:
     
  2. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Webdog, I think many people who were saved young do not really remember life before salvation. I can testify to that. I was saved very young when I trusted Christ for salvation. I don't really remember life before that.

    As for giving personal testimonies, I don't know if Calvin ever did. I am not greatly concerned with it. Calvinism is about what we believe Scripture teaches, rather than about Calvin himself.
     
  3. christianyouth

    christianyouth New Member

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    I likewise, do not know when I was saved. All I know is that God changed the desires of my heart at one time, and told me that I was saved. Consequently, I do not know if I should be re-baptized, because I'm pretty sure I was baptized as a false convert. Oh well.

    About Calvin's salvation, recently I heard some pretty scary things about John Calvin's behavior. As I was listening to a debate between Todd Friel, the host of the radio show Way of the Master, an atheist brought up the fact that Christianity has a brutal track record, full of violence and hatred against other Christians. Who did he bring up to epitomize this point? Calvin. He said that Calvin brutally murdered someone named Zwingly(?) simply because he had differing views on the trinity.

    I have never heard of this before, but if this is true, I would venture to say that Calvin is somewhat lacking in the fruits of the spirit, I.E. the 'love,gentleness,goodness.' Usually when someone is a murderer, its a good indication that he may have never knew the Lord.

    This could just be a false account used to bring shame to the cause of Calvin, I'm not sure. That is why I am running it by you guys on here, who probably have more knowledge about this topic.

    I'll say one last thing, looking at the Reformers, I have always read biographies and accounts from reformed standpoint, perhaps this has blurred the true character of these men. I know that Steven Gregg does a series on church history in which he throws out repeated diatribes against the Reformers just examining their life styles. If Luther really did drown Anabaptists, and if Calvin really murdered this man, I'm ashamed to call myself Reformed.

    -Andy
     
  4. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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  5. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    ==Actually it was Michael Servetus and Calvin did not murder him. Servetus was executed. Why was he executed? He was a heretic. His views of the Trinity, even today, would be rightly called blasphemy. Should he have been executed for his heresy? No. However you must keep in mind that such executions were typical in Calvin's day. That is not said to defend the execution of Servetus, since I don't approve of such things, but it is said to put Calvin's approval of his execution in some historical context.

    If the host on "The Way of the Master" did not bring up these points he should not have been debating this atheist. These are typical atheistic talking points.


    ==I think you need to find some good biographies on these men. For Luther the best one is "Here I Stand" by Roland Bainton. As far as I am concerned it is the best biography out there on Martin Luther. I am not familiar with the idea that Luther drowned Anabaptists so you will have to provide source information on that one. Luther is not without his "sins" (ex: his statements on the Jews) but that does not take away from the work he did. Reformed theology must be judged by Scripture since it is Scripture that is a rule of faith and life. We can't judge reformed theology by the various people who have held to it since we can find both bad and good. Personally I think Luther was generally on the good side. However if you are looking for a sinless man, or an apostle, you will be disappointed in Luther.
     
  6. christianyouth

    christianyouth New Member

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    Thanks Martin, and Andy.

    Martin, While we do need to go on the sacred scripture, in Mt. 7 Jesus warned the apostles against false prophets who appear to be sheep but are really wolves, he said that they would know the false prophets by their fruits. A great indication for me, and really one of the contributing factors for me embracing Calvinism was the fruits of the people who held to Calvinism, Whitefield, Edwards, Spurgeon, ect.

    The reason I say that is because if I study out these issues, and come to the conclusion that Luther was a pagan and completly bereft of the fruits of the Spirit, it could be a great indication that this man was indeed, as Jesus calls those who bear bad fruits, a false prophet.
     
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I hear Benny Hinn doing this all the time :)
    I believe in the same sense we can go back in history to research the day we are born physically, if we have the Holy Spirit indwelling us, we have the same ability to research the new birth. We might not be able to pinpoint the day or hour, but the general timeframe (season in life) when it occured.
     
    #27 webdog, Apr 5, 2007
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  8. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Christianyouth,

    I would encourage you to not base your doctrinal beliefs on the behavior of mere men. Yes, such examiniations of behavior may be helpful at times and under limited circumstances, but ultimately you need to be convinced from the Word of God. No matter what doctrine we discuss, I'm sure we could always find someone who held that doctrine that behaved like the devil. But then what do we do when we find many others who held that same doctrine who represented Christ faithfully? Do we tally up the positives vs. the negatives and see who wins and determine the truth of the doctrine that way? I think not. Do not put your faith in men.
     
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Good morning to you, brother reformed! I've prayed for your upcoming situation. What a cool oportunity God has given you!

    I agree with the notion we might not be able to pinpoint an exact time. I even think your friend stating his salvation at an early age is acceptable, while I don't think he actually found out he was saved as a child, he was more likely saved as a child. It's when I hear some say that there was never a time in their life when they weren't saved (Osteen and Macarthur on a similar level).

    I understand Andy's point about not being able to grasp a person's perspective from a book, but when they are direct quotes from a book you are writing, I think that counts for something.
     
  10. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    ==I agree with all of that. My point was that simply because one could find some "bad eggs" among those who hold to/teach reformed theology that does not mean that reformed theology is wrong. We can find "bad eggs" holding to/teaching almost any orthodox position we can think of.

    ==Even if such were the case, and I don't believe it is, that would not subtract from reformed theology one bit. Reformed theology, as a system, stands or falls on Scripture alone. Luther, Calvin, Whitefield, Edwards, and the rest would agree with me on that point.

    I do think you need to be careful though. Keep in mind that even in the best of biographies we don't have a full picture of the person. Some biographies paint a rose colored picture of the person while others focus on the person's sins/warts. You must keep everything in its proper historical perspective. If you don't the danger is that you will misjudge a person's actions/motives. A great example of that is Calvin and Servetus. There is a historical context that must be understood and there are facts that "certain folks" like to ignore in favor of more sensational claims. Such sensational claims need to be examined in the light of careful historical research. Usually, when that is done, those types of sensational claims fall apart.
     
    #30 Martin, Apr 5, 2007
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  11. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    I would like to see the quote and reference of John MacArthur essentially saying he was born saved. If he was saved at a young age (say 4 or 5) and cannot remember much of his life before he was saved, then it is a false charge against him to say that he thinks he was born saved.

    Who can remember much of their life before the age of 4 or 5 anyway? All we have are little glimpses in our mind's eye. All three of my children were saved either at the ages of 4 or 5. I doubt when they grow up they will be able to recall much of their life before their conversion. In fact, I sometimes ask them if they remember stuff about our old house or what-not and they have little memories now before the age of 4 or 5, and it is only a handful of years after the fact.
     
  12. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    You think one can honestly grasp salvation at 4?

    The quote was on here a while back with the linked source. I'll try to find it.
     
  13. Martin

    Martin Active Member

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    ==Right, and as I pointed out in my reply to that accusation the idea that MacArthur thinks that there was never a time in his life when he was not saved is simply contradictory to MacArthur's teachings on this subject. I have a taped interview with MacArthur in which he discusses salvation (etc) and I think he talks about his salvation on that tape. I am going to listen to it again this weekend and see what he says. I think what Webdog is reacting to is the idea that someone can't remember when they were saved because they were a small child. While I share his concern about people who claim they were saved at 4 or 5; I don't believe salvation at that age is impossible. I only tend to question it when the person's lifestyle is unChristian.
     
  14. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Yes. I don't limit God and his work. My son was age 4 and 11 months when he was saved and made a credible profession of faith. My two daughters were 5 (one had just turned 5). I have also witnessed several other children who gave credible testimonies around that age. And I've talked to many other children (say around the age of 10 or so) who give credible testimonies of being saved at very young ages. My children do the same now (they are between the ages of 8-13 currently).

    All of these children know that they are a sinner and needed Christ's forgiveness to be made right with God.

    The Gospel is simple.
     
  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    From Parker on Calvin ( p.163)

    God drew me from obscure and lowly beginnings and conferred on me that most honorable office of herald and minister of the Gospel . My father had intended me for theology from my early childhood . But when he reflected that the career of the law proved everywhere very lucrative for its practitioners , the prospect suddenly made him change his mind . And so it happened that I was called away from the study of philosphy and set to learning law . Although , out of obedience to my father's wishes , I tried my best work hard , yet God at last turned my course in another direction by the secret rein of his providence . What happened first was that by an unexpected conversion he tamed to teachableness a mind too stubborn for its years -- for I was so strongly devoted to the superstitions of the papacy that nothing less could draw me from such depths of mire . And so this mere taste of true godliness that I received set me on fire with such a desire to progress that I pursued the rest of my studies more cooly, although I did not give them up altogether . Before a year had slipped by anybody who longed for a purer doctrine kept on coming to learn from me , still a beginner , a raw recruit .
     
  16. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Webdog, I am curious - what about the Gospel is so complicated that some 4 year olds cannot understand it? I suppose this might go down the path of more age of accountability arguments, but it doesn't need to. My children have been saturated with the Word from day one - in the home and at solid churches. They had a constant awareness of the Gospel - that God saves sinners through the great love and sacrifice of his Son, Jesus. I am trying to be reserved in all of this, but the salvation of my children gives me great joy, and when some theological system that has no biblical support tries to tell me that my children couldn't possibly be saved, then it makes me upset.

    Please provide biblical support that a 4-year old is too young to understand the Gospel.

    And to answer Martin's reservations, if any of my children grow up and abandon the faith for good, then yes, I will look back and realize they were never really converted. But right now, all three of them give credible professions of faith and give us no reason to doubt their professions.
     
    #36 Andy T., Apr 5, 2007
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  17. amity

    amity New Member

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    No, I don't think every believer OUGHT anything. And some people are regenerated from the womb, it would seem. Plus, even if one has the most amazing spiritual experience ever, does one need to tell other people? Our spritual lives are a very personal thing.
     
  18. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill New Member

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    Thankyou Rippon. I might have known you would dig deep. Good job. I would say that is enough of a statement to count as a testimony.
    While I have read "The Institutes",some of calvin's commentary,and listened to some lectures about the Institutes and Calvin, I am not a Calvinist although I agree with some of what he writes up to a point.:godisgood:
     
  19. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I have heard some contend this a couple of times on here and wanted to say something concerning it.

    Though I do not beleive every believer needs to be able to give a date and time kind of testimony like "I was saved on July 12 at 2:13 pm".
    I do believe that every single believer CAN recall and give an exact moment salvation, as in recalling that exact moment when God called, revealed, and transformed your life into a new creation. It will not be some willy-nilly testimony of "I was saved sometime when I was young" or worse "I was saved sometime between such age and such age (example between 7 and 13). I also don't mean everyone has to have some big emotional experience, though mine was, they do have a life changing experience they can testify to of that moment. Scripture describes this life changing event in such a way that it is something you can reference back to AS A testimony or something you can give a personal and first hand account of. We have scripture stating that God transforms forms you from an 'old' to a 'new'. We know that at the point of belief, salvation is not a process but instantanious. That is not something you are unsure of as to the exacts of what happened at the point of your being made a new creation or the new birth. That is another identifier of a point you can go back to. Though in the flesh I do not recall when I was born in the flesh because my understanding was...well...limited. Others did know I was born and from THAT point forward I can look back and tell you how old I am now in the flesh. The same in the spiritual but with one differece, you have understanding (even at age 5 or - Yes I do agree some can be truly born again here) and a definite sense of what you are outside of God and who you have suddenly become in CHrist. You may not know the exact day (like me) but I can tell you how old I was, and exactly what happened when the Holy Spirit called my name, touched my heart/soul, and saved me by mading me a new creation in Christ/Born-again.

    I have found that people who can tell you they were saved somewhere "back there' so to speak, can not tell you (in most instances but not every) about even the moment of that salvation.

    As a sad side note: I remember being on a particular web site where this father stated: He prays there will never be a day his children can recall not being saved since their births. There are those who preach salvation is a birth right and also just as tragicly that salvation is a process over time in which you will just realize you ARE saved. Both are false and unbiblical. For with the heart man believes UNTO righteousness and with the mouth confession is made UNTO salvation...For whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

    Though it is scripture, it is my opinion also.
     
    #39 Allan, Apr 5, 2007
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  20. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    What if someone gets amensia or Altzheimer's and can't remember anything? Is that person unsaved now because they can't remember the "exact moment" of their salvation? This obsession with "exact moment" is largely a modern American revivalistic construct. I guess when salvation depends so much on man, then such constructs are bound to occur.

    I've known people who have struggled with the Gospel and then come to faith only to doubt that faith within a few weeks or months. They think they are not saved and then pray for assurance and maybe that time "it sticks". Now that person may have been saved the first time, or maybe it wasn't until the 2nd time. And they might not even know which time it was, but they do know currently that they are saved, and it was during that timeframe that they were saved. What do you say to that person?

    A point of clarification: I do believe that justification is a one-time instantaneous act. But not everyone has the benefit of knowing the exact moment of when that occurred. I think most do, but some do not.
     
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