Was John Calvin saved?

Yes, and you bet. We need to tell everyone about what God has done for us scripturally then testify of that truth with your own life. That is the only true way to give witness of the truths of scritpure. As illistrative examples:

Tell what God can and will do, but also tell them He did it to you. You are the miricle everyone needs to hear about.

It is a personal thing but it is to be public knowledge.

and a seperate but same illistrative point about our testimony of salvation to others.

 

So now you are callign me an unbeleiver????? ... Seriously, I disagree. I think there is a moment of regeneration, but I am not sure people know it exactly. I don't. It may have been when I was 6, my first recollection. It may have been when I was 18, when I settled the matter once and for all. It may have been anyone of several times in between. All I know is that the grace of God never let me go during that time and I praise him for it. To be so utterly helpless from that day to this, and yet know the grace of God at work is a wonderful thing.

 

Why must people toss up silly straw men to maintain a personal view.
If the person has a mental disease the fruit of who they WERE before the on set of said disease is manifested in many forms. ie - others knew them and their testimony along with many other identifying marks. One I have found most astonishing (though I dont' know if it is something that is across the board) is that though they may not remember their own childs name they can remember scriptures very well.

Your assumption of knowing when a person is saved being something depending on man, is lacking and somewhat childish. It is NOT new but it is regarding the Calvinistic culture. Scripturally the early church did not wait around a few months to see if a person bore out the marks of a believer. The only mark they looked for was the testimony that one has been saved, period. Show me biblical contention otherwise.

Doubting is not a mark of ONLY unbelievers but is also attributed to those who are immature in the faith.
However, as a Preaher for 14 years, an Evangelist for 6, and a Pastor for much less I can say with in my sphere of preaching and listening to people tell their own stories or testimonies. They do KNOW when they were saved. I have found it is always pride that makes someone who thought they were saved but later was truly born-again, try to maintain an early salvation testimony. I have found a simple way to help THEM in knowing the truth. (I don't care WHEN they were saved, but that THEY know when and confess it truly) They should not come up (if doing alter call) just to DO something but there should be counsilors there to help them understand what is going on and to prayfully guide them. I a couple of says or a few weeks, THEY will come back and tell YOU, and what is most exillerating is they are excited about knowing and recognizing that truth. They will tell you with a new born believers exuberance about THAT salvation moment and how it differed, and was truly set apart from anything else. It is in THIS format counsilores you loose 90 to 95 percent of those people who aren't sure WHEN they were saved at the alter.
I have always asked - basically these 3 questions:

with a little personal prayer time and examining of the themselves in a more one on one atmosphere where they can examine themselves in light of scripture and personal prayer.

Then I have them go back and seek the Lord and have HIM settle the matter. I have yet to have one person come back and NOT be settled and tell me all that transpired at that moment. And so as not to give numbers in the assumption of others that I am bragging - It has been to a multitude of people, yes. A large multitude.

That is why Paul says to EXAMINE yourselfs to KNOW whether you ARE in the the Faith. This was not something to be done daily but was his command given during the time of partaking in the Lords Supper. It was something done to RE-AFFIRM who they were or who they were not.

I can only somewhat agree with you (marginally) that some do not.
However it is most always new believers left to themselves to study, understand, and or growing the Lord on their own who are murky in their knowledge. Yet still they do know (if saved) there was a point, a change, a distinct turing from self to God - even if they are unclear just how saved they are.

 

I do not discard anything. But I find it interesting that you use the phrase "settled it ONCE AND FOR ALL". How did you settle the matter if all those times in between were not settled from 5 till then (18)?
I suspect that YOU did not settle the matter
God only saves those who come to Him with a pure heart seeking Him. Not those who seek Him for personal gain or fire insurance or even for mental assent. You must understand certain things but ALSO must yeild to the truths God has revealed to you. Not in part but the whole. It must be from the heart as Roman 10:9-10 declares.
I don't want a C/A debate here. But we can both agree on the phrased wording I set forth. I hope.

I do not question your salvation (nor anyones per say - I must find out HOW they believe they are saved of course) but I find it amusing when many people use that type phrasology to explain a point where their lives took on and maintained a changed life they never had before. As in where they continue coming back time and again, to be saved.

See again, in your own testimony you acknowledge "from that day to this", just as every true born-again, spirit filled christian does. But I agree with your statement however in absoluteness:

 

No, it was a serious question. If recalling the exact moment of one's salvation is critical to that person being saved as you declared in an earlier post, then what about those people who can no longer remember?

No, I did not say that a person knowing when they are saved is tied to salvation being dependent on man. I said that our "obsession" with everyone having to know the "exact moment" is a fruit of American revivalistic thinking. And yes, such thinking is rooted in an ardent man-centered approach to evangelism and theology in general. We are affected by it - I am affected by this thinking - it doesn't mean I was accusing you of being man-centered anymore than I would accuse myself of that thinking. But the popular American theology of the last century and a half was borne out of such thinking and we continue to be affected by that worldview today.

I also do not wait until someone has proved themself to be saved - a credible profession is enough until they prove at some point that such profession was possibly false.

I agree and never said otherwise. I gave an example and that's all it was intended to be.

Actually, what you discuss here gets into the whole Lordship/Non-Lordship debate, and you and I are probably much closer on this issue than you may realize. I fall closer to the Lordship position (as it appears you do) but I can't say that I embrace it fully in all details.

Well, I said earlier that I think most people do know the moment they were saved, but I do not necessarily discount those who don't.

 

For me it was a matter of faith. I desired salvation and forgiveness of sins. I understood it. But there was always in my mind a "what if" scenario going on. "What if I didn't say the right words?" "What if God didn't hear me?" etc ... After being challenged to read 1 John, I realized the issue was my belief in God's promise. So "I" didn't settle it per se. I came to a greater understanding of the issue.

 

I already answered this in a previous post to you. There are other things that can be looked at. Those things which scripture gives believers to examine (thier fruits) in their manner of life previous to the ailment.

Again, please show any biblical proof. Even proof regarding the early church fathers that was a belief held in the main. There is no root in man centered thinking my friend, but is based solely on scripture. So, until otherwise so shown I will respectfully disagree with you assumption.

I agree as well, but there are growing numbers of churches who are doing the opposite.

I agree with you here as well. I don't hold to the view one can be saved and not have yeilded to the Lordship of Christ in their life because that person is a new creation IN Christ by submitting themselves to His saving, redeeming, perserving power therefore they ARE submitted to Him. To be honest I don't really know the whole argument of what Lordship salvation is and is not.

I don't discount them. I seek to help them identify and understand what happened and when it happened for THEIR benifit and testimony, not mine.

 

I agree and emboldened the best portion.

 

I don't mind continuing this and will only to a small point because I don't want to completely derail the thread about when John Calvin got saved.

Actually I have heard to different thoughts on it. And think I posted in another thread a portion of the answer.

One thought is - John held his salvation was in his infant baptism. Though I have never found him personally making this statement. I think it was more derived from the fact he supported infant baptism.

The other thought - is that While Calvin does not specifically SAY when he got saved, he does say there was a change in his desire and profession that came from God and the reason he left off his fathers dream for him. (If I remember correctly). I will look again at some of my notes.

 

Allan, I think we are at a disconnect here. I am all for people giving professions of faith - I agree this is how we first know a person is saved. You seem to think I am against people giving their testimony - I am not - I am all for that! I agree it is the biblical pattern for people to do so.

What I have objected to here is not giving one's testimony of conversion, but rather the obsession we have that each person must know without a doubt the exact moment of when their regeneration/justfication occurred. Such a requirement is not found in Scripture. Frankly, I am more concerned if a person currently trusts Christ alone than if they made some profession many years ago.

 

Ok, I can agree that what is current is more important.
But I do believe that one is hard pressed to express their conversion (testimony) if one can not remember the work of the Lord which took place during or at the point of convertion/changed life (when their heart changed, desires changed).

It is more (for me at least) about them and their walk with God. I have found that when those who were not sure at one point come to KNOW when in their Life God worked His completed work they become excited and more...desirous to know and grow more in the Lord (relational wise). They can go back - NOT to the sinners prayer, nor an aile but to the work of God that changed them forever.

 

Allan, I agree. Peace.

 

So , to come back to the OP , of course John Calvin was saved and is now in Glory . Most of his detractors on the BB would not be worthy to shine his shoes were he living today ( and that includes his supporters as well. )

 

We can't know anybody is saved besides ourselves. Having said that, I believe John Calvin was saved.

 

And how do you figure that since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God? So are you adding an element of works to the work of Christ?

 

He spoke and acted like it. An interesting website - http://www.lgmarshall.org/calvin_index.html

 

I think that reformers are those who become acquainted with the faith, have some questions about it, then decide that it is true. From that point on, water baptism or no, they trust (have faith) that they are in fact, saved. They then let other folks know, write books, etc., about what they believe. Sadly, intellectualism creeps in. The messages take on the aura of "what I discovered," including lots of intellectual analysis of what it means to be an authentic follower of Christ. Result? Denominationalism.

That is not to say that the "discoverer" was or is not an authentic Christian. It does say that h/she got sidetracked along the way. Some, of course, never make the spiritual adjustment from seeker to saved.

WE simply can't be the ultimate judge of one's standing before Christ. I recoil when I hear someone blast someone else, index finger extended, with "You're going straight to hell!"

 

John Calvin's Testimony

Skypair said on another thread ( Some Basic Info On John Calvin ) that Dave Hunt thinks Calvin never gave his testimony . So here it is .

 

Good Day, Rippon

Dave Hunt thinks.....

I learn something everyday ... :laugh:

In Him,

Bill