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Featured Was Judas Born-Again and Then Lost?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Nov 21, 2021.

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  1. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    “Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?” So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first” (Matthew 19:23-30)

    Jesus is in this passage, speaking to the 12 Disciples. There can be no doubt, that the words that Jesus speaks in verse 28, are addressed to the 12, as Jesus says that THEY will sit on TWELVE thrones, judging the TWELVE Tribes of Israel. There can be no doubt from Jesus’ Words, that Judas is included in this. This is a future event, which is in the Afterlife in heaven, which is only for those who "born-again".

    Jesus is here speaking of the next life, as He clearly says, “in the Regeneration”, which actually is the same Greek word, “παλιγγενεσία”, used in Titus 3:5, which literally means, “New Birth”, a reference to the afterlife for believers.

    Can Jesus have said this to the TWELVE, including Judas, and not mean that, had Judas remained faithful, that he would have been in heaven?

    We already have seen from Luke’s account of the Lord’s Supper, which is in more detail, that Jesus did give the Bread and Wine to Judas, and told him as part of the 12, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you” (22:20).

    The timing is very important. Had Jesus not wanted to include Judas in what He said, then He could have said what He does in Matthew 19, and Luke 22, after Judas had left the room to betray Him. However, as the facts stand, Jesus made sure that Judas was present for both events.

    In Luke’s Gospel, Jesus again says something very similar to this:

    “But you are those who have continued with me in my trials. I confer on you a kingdom, even as my Father conferred on me, that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom. You will sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (22:28-30)

    This takes place when Jesus give the Lord’s Supper, when Judas was present, and also took part in this.

    However, we do know from Acts 1:25, that Judas did not go to heaven after his death, “to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas fell away, that he might go to his own place.”

    In Matthew 10:1, we read, “And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction

    Mark 3:14, “He appointed twelve, that they might be with him, and that he might send them out to preach

    Mark 9:35, 41, “He sat down, and called the twelve; and he said to them… For whoever will give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because you are Christ’s, most certainly I tell you, he will in no way lose his reward”

    John 6:70, “Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil (διάβολος, false accuser).”

    These verses, as many others in the Gospels, clearly show that Judas, as one of the 12 Disciples, whom Jesus Christ had personally chosen, is said to also “belong to Christ”, being one of His, in a very personal way. Judas was given the same “them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction”. And to preach the Gospel Message as the other 11.

    Judas remained as one of the 12 Disciples, till the time when he chose to betray Jesus Christ to the Jewish leaders.

    There is an interesting passage by the Reformed theologian Dr Robert Dabney:

    “Certainly the expiation made by Christ is so related to all, irrespective of election, that God can sincerely invite all to enjoy its benefits, that every soul in the world who desires salvation is warranted to appropriate it, and that even a Judas, had he come in earnest, would not have been cast out” (Systematic Theology, p.527)

    Is the example of Judas, of someone who can be “born again”, and then lose their salvation? What does this teach us about “once saved, always saved”?
     
    #1 SavedByGrace, Nov 21, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
  2. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Tares growing with the wheat receive the blessings of the sun and the rain, and reap the advantages of the tilled earth.

    The tares were never wheat, but always chaff, and will be winnowed out and burned in the end.
     
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  3. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    this does in no way answer the OP!

    Jesus is Almighty God, and there is no way that His words can mean anything other than what He says.

    As we can see from these accounts in the Gospels, that Jesus spoke these words to Judas, as one of the 12 Disciples that He Himself has chosen. Jesus' language was not for this present world, but the world that is to come, in the Presence of God in heaven.
     
  4. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Judas' unbelief has nothing to do with it.
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    explain
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    If Judas was truely a follower of Christ would he have betrayed Him? John 6:64, ". . . But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. . . ."
     
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  7. Two Wings

    Two Wings Active Member
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    I believe Judas was a social follower of Christ.

    He couldn't have "been saved" because he'd have been John 10:28'd ... assured of salvation.

    as you've noted, clearly he wasn't.
     
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  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    how do you answer what Jesus says to the 12, including Judas, about judging in the next life?
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    see #8
     
  10. Two Wings

    Two Wings Active Member
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    I don't worry about it.

    But if Jesus says Judas was a devil and went to his own place (e.g. separate from the others in the discussion) ... that's good enough for me.

    ... it doesn't invalidate the assuredness of salvation in John 10:28 because there are lots of cultural christians. Judas was the first, apparently.

    I wonder if Judas wasn't a nephilim ... no spirit to have breathed back to life. As it was in the days of Noah the Master said ... in the days of Noah, the planet was dominated by nephilim; not all of 'em were 18' tall. in fact, most apparently weren't.
     
  11. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    Jesus never said that Judas was "a devil", the English translations do. The Greek is "διάβολος", which basically means, "false accuser"

    You say, "I wonder if Judas wasn't a nephilim", this is no more than unbiblical speculation!
     
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  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    It would have been easyer to answer if you repeated the reference.

    So you think because Judas was one one of the first 12 chosen disciples that meant Judas was really a follower of Christ?
     
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  13. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    The reference is fully given in the OP

    There is no evidence in the Gospels, that Judas was not a serious follower of Jesus Christ, as he was given the same authority as the others by Jesus, and did the same as the others. Whenever he chose to betray Jesus, was when he would have ceased from his calling as a true Disciple.
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The full stipulation . . .
    That is, into the millennium kingdom.
     
  15. Two Wings

    Two Wings Active Member
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    so you say.

    test these things ... to see if they are true. Berean style.

    I didn't say I understood this to be true, but simply seeking to understand why he'd do what he did if he was a spirit-breathed-to-life follower of Christ ... IN THE FLESH no less. Christ even addressed the relative strength of those who'd seen and believed vice those who'd NOT seen and yet believed.

    Such is the basis for my speculation. I don't stew about it, but since you raised the issue with your post.

    Are you seeking real discussion, or simply validation?
     
  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    so Judas would have gone into the millennium kingdom? he must be SAVED, BORN AGAIN to do this!
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    answer to the OP
     
  18. Two Wings

    Two Wings Active Member
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    No, Judas was not born-again and then lost.
     
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  19. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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    could Jesus Christ have said what He does, in Matthew 19:23-30, to someone who is unsaved? Could Jesus tell a lost person, that they will be in the REGERERATION, which is Life in Heaven?
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You do not understand what it said, Matthew 19:28, "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, that ye who have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." That event is yet future. So unless lost Judas has part in the first resurrection, Judas is not included.
     
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