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Was Mary a Biological Mother or a Surrogate Mother for Jesus?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Eliyahu, Jan 21, 2008.

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  1. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Evidence Please!

    How can you claim that Luke 3:23 - is the lineage of Mary while it doesn't mention her name at all?

    Even Matt 1 which is not the genealogy of Mary mentions her name, why is Luke omitting her name?
     
  2. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    David's seed was in Mary. She was of David's bloodline. Honestly, we've gone over this before.
     
  3. standingfirminChrist

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    Women do not produce seed, annsni. Ask any OB/GYN. It is the man that carries the seed. Mary did not contribute any of David's seed to the conception of Christ as it is an impossibility.
     
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The Scripture will speak for itself if you will let it. If you redefine words to try and fit them into a pre-conceived theology then of course you can claim all sorts of things. That is what neo-orthodoxy is--the redefining of orthodox terms making them mean something different other than their accepted historical meaning.
    I just finished posting the lineage of Mary, and how we know it is the lineage of Mary from Luke 2, with a quote from Scofield. Did you follow that much?
    The lineage in Joseph is in Matthew. Matthews gospel was written to present Christ to the Jews to present Christ as the Messiah. That gospel has more OT references than any other gospel. He presents Christ as Messiah, the King of the Jews. A lineage is absolutely necessary for a King. Royal lineages are traced through the father. That is customary, and so that is what was done. The unbelieving Jews did not know much of Jesus true birth as I already pointed out to you. God does everything for a purpose. He wasn't deceiving anyone.

    Those who study the Word knew that Jesus could not inherit the throne of David through Joseph because that particular line was cursed by Jeconiah. That necessitated the virgin birth. The only way he could be born and still be traced back to David without being cursed is to be born through Mary's blood line, which wasn't cursed. There is no deception on anyone's part. Dig deeper into the truth.

    BTW, is God deceiving Herod when he sent the wise men back another way?
    Matthew 2:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

    Or here?
    Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

    Things are not always as they seem. And God does not explain everything to us. He leaves somethings up to us to study them out.
     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    That depends on how seed is defined in the Bible.
    If it is defined as "egg" of course woman produce it.
    If it is defined as "sperm" of course they don't.
    I doubt if "seed" means either one consistently.
    Again, context defines the word.
     
  6. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Well, we know for sure that Joseph's lineage from David to Jesus, does not come into the picture for he had nothing to do with the birth of Jesus.

    There is given in scripture two different lineages from Jesus back to David and if the one in Matt was about Joseph, which gave no link to Jesus, but stopped with Joseph, then I look to Luke which does give a link back to David and Mary is the only one between the two of them that had any part in the birth of Jesus.

    Scripture tells me that Jesus is of the seed of David.

    Rom 1:3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    I have left only one other way to go and that is through Mary to Nathan to David. It is just my opinion.

    Do you have a better one.

    I know for sure I am not alone in this assumption but do I have Mary's name in the book of Luke about her lineage, NO!

    BBob,
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Why does he have to mention her name. Is it necessary that he write according to your standards. Or, does God expect us to do some study on our own?
     
  8. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    The theory that the egg of Mary was used is quite similar to the Babylonian Myth of goddess Ishtar who was told to have been hatched from an egg dropped from the heaven, then the Egg became the symbol of her.

    Even Tamuz may have been hatched from her egg too, and died and therefore Ishtar mourned for him 40 days ( RCC Lent), then he was resurrected after the vernal equinox and they celebrated this resurrection as Pasahu.

    http://www.yahweh.com/booklets/EASTER/easter.htm


    True Christianity is the only religion which tells the Incarnation, Word became Flesh.

    David's lineage is important, but it was fulfiled by the Surrogacy. No other family had the visit of the Messiah like that, and it was a great blessing.

    The Biblical view on the bloodline is this:
    Gal 3
    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
     
  9. standingfirminChrist

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    You have just defeated your cause when you said

    That depends on how seed is defined in the Bible.
    If it is defined as "egg" of course woman produce it.

    Nowhere, and I repeat... nowhere in the Word of God is seed defined as egg.
     
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Then what are you going to do with Naomi who took Obed as her son, so he would be of the seed of Judah, instead of the Gentiles through Little Ruth. Then from Obed to Jesse and to David. According to your theory Sfic;, then David is not of the seed of Judah.

    BBob,
     
  11. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Without her name, how could anyone identify it is her genealogy?

    It is very much common sense.
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP:First. leaning on that pulpit is no place to be be airing simply ones opinions.:) Just kidding.

    Oh yes they can be, as scholars have well pointed out and established.

    First you need to start your investigation upon the clear words of Scripture. Matt. Starts out telling us that this is the book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. The genealogy ends in verse 16 with the words, “and Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary.” Notice that Jacob did NOT begat Mary, the wife of Joseph, but rather Jacob begat Joseph.

    The reason for two different accounts of the lineage of Christ stems evidently from Joseph having two fathers, one his biological father and the other having adopted or raised him and as such was commonly considered as his father. Both of Joseph’s fathers came from the line of David. If Mary is a descendent of David, Scripture does not make that clear. It well may be true but is not established by the Word of God as far as I have read and studied. Regardless of who the Jews might have thought Joseph's father was, they were both from the line of David.

    Luke start his genealogy with these words, Lu 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,”. Note clearly that Luke said Christ was, (being) as supposed. He was the son of Joseph, although not by any natural means known to man. Joseph did not have intercourse with Mary before Christ was born, and yet still God states that Jesus was of his lineage, just as was supposed. That is indeed a miracle of miracles. The virgin birth and the Incarnation of God in human flesh.

    I apologize for not having the resources at my fingertips to document every thing I have said. I am certain anyone with a keen interest in the subject will find the available resources readily available to them to substantiate the claim that Joseph indeed had two father, one named Jacob and the other named Heli
     
  13. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Let’s see. Would that be called conjecture, a mere presupposition, a hypothesis, or simply a convenient guess? :)
     
  14. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    From some of my reading Heli was the father of Mary.

    BBob,
     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You are entitled to you opinion no matter how dogmatically you assert it. That doesn't make it right. A firmly stated opinion still needs to be backed up with verifiable evidence which you have not done. Until then it remains opinion.

    Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    The seed, belonging to the female, will bring forth Christ. A female seed of a necessity, in this prophecy must refer to that which brought forth Christ. Connected with Isaiah 7:14 there is no reason not to believe that it doesn't mean egg.
    A virgin shall conceive (An egg shall be fertilized), and she shall bring forth a son.
     
  16. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    When there is no direct scripture then suppositions do come into play, believe it or not...........:)

    BBob,
     
  17. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    It can be JOseph's mother line too.
    Look at the scripture:

    Hos enomizeto huios Joseph tou Heli tou Matthat tou leui tou melxi tou....

    Nathan tou Dabid.... Seth tou Adam

    The relationship between Joseph and Heli is simply stated by tou which appears between Nathan and David too.

    You find no clue to think that it is the lineage of Mary any where.

    Joseph's name is there. Luke doesn't mention any other name than Joseph.
    You are building up the theology based on the guesswork and conjecture.
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: That is in direct opposition to the Word of God as I read it. Where is there any biblical proof of it being so? Do not both of the genealogies point directly to Joseph as I pointed out?
     
  19. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    About the same as you are. I think what I have suggested makes a lot of sense to me, and is about as good as anyone else's.

    Will we ever know for sure Eliyah???

    BBob,
     
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Possible that Heli was Mary's father and Joseph's stepfather.

    BBob,
     
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