1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Was Paul an Apostle

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by lakeside, May 10, 2015.

  1. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    2
    Plese note, I did not make any of these videos. I did a quick youtube search and found them. Other information on Osteen and how far off base he can be is easily discovered online.

    Here are three pieces compiled by Todd Friel on Wretched TV (I don't really like Friel, but he does compile some good info from time to time)
    Steve Lawson reads an Osteen interview with Larry King
    Osteen on Mitt Romney
    Rosey Grier and Joel Osteen and the Gospel


    Some non-Todd Friel Links
    Joel Osteen called out on Larry King
    Osteen claims Mormons are true Christians
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I think we can agree that Matthias was the replacement/successor to Judas.

    We can also agree that the Apostle James was then killed and had no successor appointed.

    And as you point out - Paul was not appointed as "a successor" to some other Apostle.

    Thus the only example of "Apostolic succession" in the NT is for the "successor of Judas".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,612
    Likes Received:
    2,896
    Faith:
    Baptist
    5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. Acts 2

    21 For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath. Acts 15

    In every place Paul went it was the logical thing to do, to go to the synagogue. Probably most cities it was the FIRST place he went.
     
    #23 kyredneck, May 11, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 11, 2015
  4. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    2
    My grandfather always said that the first place Paul went was the synagogue and the second place he went was the jail. :thumbs:
     
  5. lakeside

    lakeside New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    0
    Acts 1:12-23 is the record of the replacement of Judas. This is Apostolic Succession. If Matthias could replace Judas as an Apostle, that means the blessings and charisms follow the office, not the individual. Remember, Pentecost happened after this event, while Matthias doesn't have a named part, it says in chapter 2, "They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them." It is then assumed that, since Matthias was now an Apostle( one of the Twelve), that he was a part of this.

    The "become like a child" passage is teaching about servant hood and humility. It does not prove that there were no earthly leaders of the Church. Moving to Acts 15, we see that the Apostles were leaders of the Church.

    As for Peter, in Matthew 16, we see Jesus give him a new name, pronounce a blessing upon him and give him the keys to the kingdom. Any name change in the Bible is a significant event and I am yet to hear any reasonable explanation for "the keys to the kingdom" other that the Church teaching.
     
  6. PreachTony

    PreachTony Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    2
    The (RC)Catholic idea of apostolic succession is based on tenuous claims at best. They claim that 1 Corinthians 11:2 is a proof text of apostolic succession. That text reads: "Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you." And they point to 2 Thessalonians 2:15, which reads "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle." Neither of those verse prove apostolic succession. They prove that people ought to hold to the traditions of Christ, delivered to them through the preached word and through written epistles.

    They claim that because Matthias had hands laid on him when his apostleship was confirmed, and because Timothy was made a bishop by the laying on of hands, that it proves apostolic succession into the line of bishops. But how many people were healed by laying on of hands? Was every person healed by laying on of hands also made a bishop through apostolic succession? No, obviously not. So that's a weak claim in itself.

    The apostles were called to do a work. Even today each Christian is called on to do a work. Some are called to teach, some to preach, some to be deacons. Do we now label every Christian an apostle, since they are all called to do a work?

    The apostles were leaders in the sense that they were the most senior Christians in the walk of faith. You don't take a newborn Christian and make them a leader of the church. No, they have to learn from someone. This learning does not mean they are bestowed with apostolic authority. It means they are learning, just as Paul instructed Timothy to "study to show thyself approved."

    So Jesus conferred on Peter a new name and made him leader of the church, right? Isn't that Catholic doctrine, that Peter was the first Pope? Peter became the vicar of Christ.

    Ask yourself this: Why would Christ name a fallible, sinful man as His representative? Why would He select someone like Peter, who gave up on the work and went fishing, to be His representative?

    You want to see the real rock upon which the church was built? Consider the statement "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God."
     
  7. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,232
    Likes Received:
    305
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thank you sir. I will check this out when I get home.
     
  8. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,232
    Likes Received:
    305
    Faith:
    Baptist
    ....agreed.
     
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Are you stating here that Paul did NOT have the same Apostolic authority and inspiration as the original 12 then had?

    That view would be dead wrong, as his authority was every bit the equal of peter, and his letters were THE revelation from God of the full meaning of the gospel///

    You must downgrade paul this way, for unless your man peter is over him, the church of rome is built upon mere men, and on a false foundation and a false Gospel!
     
  10. lakeside

    lakeside New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeshua, you wrote; " Are you stating here that Paul did NOT have the same Apostolic authority and inspiration as the original 12 then had?

    That view would be dead wrong, as his authority was every bit the equal of peter, and his letters were THE revelation from God of the full meaning of the gospel///

    You must downgrade paul this way, for unless your man peter is over him, the church of rome is built upon mere men, and on a false foundation and a false Gospel! "

    No Yeshua, you must downgrade the Lord's Words spoken to Peter and attempt to place Paul with an equal role as the Lord placed Peter. Who has the Authority you or the Lord's Word ?
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The SAME Jesus that gave peter his authority as Apostle to the Jews gave paul SAME authority to be such for the Gentiles!

    peter stated himself that Pauls letters were rqual to his own in authority and inspiration, do you deny what peter stated there then?
     
  12. lakeside

    lakeside New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeshua,by standing up to speak after the debate had subsided, Peter made an emphatic physical gesture affirming his authority and centrality. The silence afterwards indicated the finality of what Peter had just said; no one disputes either his speech or his right to make it. In fact, the witness of Paul and Barnabas, along with James’s speech, only reinforce and agree with what Peter says.
     
  13. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2004
    Messages:
    7,406
    Likes Received:
    101
    Coming in late here, my apologies, but Paul self identifies as an Apostle and Luke also affirms his apostolic office...Peter also recognizes his apostolicity.

    Along these same lines, the office of Apostle clearly expands in the first generation of Christians to include others like Barnabas, Apollos, and others. It is likely that the apostolic office of the first century, while still meeting the criteria of Acts 1, expanded to help foster new churches and spread the Gospel.

    So yes, Paul was an apostle.
     
  14. lakeside

    lakeside New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeshua, there is ample evidence in the New Testament that Peter was first in authority among the apostles. Whenever they were named, Peter headed the list (Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Acts 1:13); sometimes the apostles were referred to as "Peter and those who were with him" (Luke 9:32). Peter was the one who generally spoke for the apostles (Matt. 18:21, Mark 8:29, Luke 12:41, John 6:68-69), and he figured in many of the most dramatic scenes (Matt. 14:28-32, Matt. 17:24-27, Mark 10:23-28). On Pentecost it was Peter who first preached to the crowds (Acts 2:14-40), and he worked the first healing in the Church age (Acts 3:6-7). It is Peter’s faith that will strengthen his brethren (Luke 22:32) and Peter is given Christ’s flock to shepherd (John 21:17). An angel was sent to announce the resurrection to Peter (Mark 16:7), and the risen Christ first appeared to Peter (Luke 24:34). He headed the meeting that elected Matthias to replace Judas (Acts 1:13-26), and he received the first converts (Acts 2:41). He inflicted the first punishment (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic (Acts 8:18-23). He led the first council in Jerusalem (Acts 15), and announced the first dogmatic decision (Acts 15:7-11). It was to Peter that the revelation came that Gentiles were to be baptized and accepted as Christians (Acts 10:46-48).
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I think I will stick with that one.

    :)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    he was the primary one among the original 12 in the beginning of Acts, but then Paul came as his equal, as the one sent to be the Apostle unto the gentiles, and the Apostle John was also seen as his equal in authority, as was james in the Jerusalem Church!

    There NEVER was given a special gracing to Peter to be the pope among the Apostles, as ALL of them had equal authority and inspiration from jesus!

    was peter the pope over the gentiles, at same time Paul was THE Apostle of God over them then?
     
  17. lakeside

    lakeside New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeshua maybe if you understood the Bible-

    Matt. to Rev. - Peter is mentioned 155 times and the rest of apostles combined are only mentioned 130 times. Peter is also always listed first except in 1 Cor. 3:22 and Gal. 2:9 (which are obvious exceptions to the rule).

    Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.

    Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.

    Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.

    Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.

    Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.

    Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.

    Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus' tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.

    Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ's representative on earth.

    Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus' teachings.

    Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.

    Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.

    Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus' curse on the fig tree.

    Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.

    Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.

    Luke 5:3 – Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat which is metaphor for the Church. Jesus guides Peter and the Church into all truth.

    Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the "fisher of men."

    Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples. Jesus also singles Peter out and judges his conduct vis-à-vis the conduct of the woman who anointed Him.

    Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.

    Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 - Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.

    Luke 9:28;33 - Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration.

    Luke 12:41 - Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter's formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven.

    Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.

    Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 - John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first.

    Luke 24:34 - the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33.

    John 6:68 - after the disciples leave, Peter is the first to speak and confess his belief in Christ after the Eucharistic discourse.

    John 13:6-9 - Peter speaks out to the Lord in front of the apostles concerning the washing of feet.

    John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred.

    John 21:2-3,11 - Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the "barque of Peter") is a metaphor for the Church.

    John 21:7 - only Peter got out of the boat and ran to the shore to meet Jesus. Peter is the earthly shepherd leading us to God.

    John 21:15 - in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus "more than these," which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see.

    John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep." Sheep means all people, even the apostles.

    Acts 1:13 - Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord's ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room.

    Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates the selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn't it need one to Peter? Of course.

    Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.

    Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.

    Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.

    Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.

    Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.

    Acts 5:3 - Peter declares the first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.

    Acts 5:15 - Peter's shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.

    Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.

    Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon's quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.

    Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and works the healing of Aeneas.

    Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.

    Acts 10:5 - Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision.

    Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).

    Acts 12:5 - this verse implies that the "whole Church" offered "earnest prayers" for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment.

    Acts 12:6-11 - Peter is freed from jail by an angel. He is the first object of divine intervention in the early Church.

    Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church's first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.

    Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter's definitive teaching.

    Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter's definitive teaching. "Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited..."

    Rom. 15:20 - Paul says he doesn't want to build on "another man's foundation" referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome.

    1 Cor. 9:5 – Peter is distinguished from the rest of the apostles and brethren of the Lord.

    1 Cor. 15:4-8 - Paul distinguishes Jesus' post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles. Christ appeared “to Cephas, then to the twelve.”

    Gal.1:18 - Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ's Revelation to Paul.

    1 Peter 5:1 - Peter acts as the chief bishop by "exhorting" all the other bishops and elders of the Church.

    1 Peter 5:13 - Some Protestants argue against the Papacy by trying to prove Peter was never in Rome. First, this argument is irrelevant to whether Jesus instituted the Papacy. Secondly, this verse demonstrates that Peter was in fact in Rome. Peter writes from "Babylon" which was a code name for Rome during these days of persecution. See, for example, Rev. 14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2,10,21, which show that "Babylon" meant Rome. Rome was the "great city" of the New Testament period. Because Rome during this age was considered the center of the world, the Lord wanted His Church to be established in Rome.

    2 Peter 1:14 - Peter writes about Jesus' prediction of Peter's death, embracing the eventual martyrdom that he would suffer.

    2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul's letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.

    Matt. 23:11; Mark 9:35; 10:44 - yet Peter, as the first, humbled himself to be the last and servant of all servants.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    When did peter claim to have this special authority though in the bible?

    My versions all state that he saw himself as just being an Elder, obe of the original 12, and that he saw paul to have SAME inspiration and authority from jesus as he did!

    And there NEVER was ANY hint in the scriptures that they saw peter as being a pope, as John/matthew/Paul were seen to all be equal to peter in the early church!
     
  19. lakeside

    lakeside New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    826
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yeshua, think as you want, but for me I go by the evidence as the Bible indicates.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If you really did do that, we would be in full agreement on this issue, but what RCC states trumps what scriptures say to you!
     
Loading...