Was sin foreordained and pre-determined by God

So your taking the stance that salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man(who must respond) & then mans response is the determining factor? In other words, your saying you have to choose to cooperate, right?

So in other words, your theology isn't exclusively God Centered! Hmmmm, I will pass thank you.

 

C.H. Spurgeon
What is faith? It is made up of three things—knowledge, belief, and trust.
Knowledge comes first. “How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?” I want to be informed of a fact before I can possibly believe it. “Faith cometh by hearing”; we must first hear, in order that we may know what is to be believed. “They that know thy name shall put their trust in thee.” A measure of knowledge is essential to faith; hence the importance of getting knowledge. “Incline your ear, and come unto me; hear, and your soul shall live.” Such was the word of the ancient prophet, and it is the word of the gospel still. Search the Scriptures and learn what the Holy Spirit teacheth concerning Christ and His salvation. Seek to know God: “For he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” May the Holy Spirit give you the spirit of knowledge, and of the fear of the Lord! Know the gospel: know what the good news is, how it talks of free forgiveness, and of change of heart, of adoption into the family of God, and of countless other blessings. Know especially Christ Jesus the Son of God, the Saviour of men, united to us by His human nature, and yet one with God; and thus able to act as Mediator between God and man, able to lay His hand upon both, and to be the connecting link between the sinner and the Judge of all the earth. Endeavour to know more and more of Christ Jesus. Endeavour especially to know the doctrine of the sacrifice of Christ; for the point upon which saving faith mainly fixes itself is this— “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them.” Know that Jesus was “made a curse for us, as it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.” Drink deep of the doctrine of the substitutionary work of Christ; for therein lies the sweetest possible comfort to the guilty sons of men, since the Lord “made him to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” Faith begins with knowledge.
The mind goes on to believe that these things are true. The soul believes that God is, and that He hears the cries of sincere hearts; that the gospel is from God; that justification by faith is the grand truth which God hath revealed in these last days by His Spirit more clearly than before. Then the heart believes that Jesus is verily and in truth our God and Saviour, the Redeemer of men, the Prophet, Priest, and King of His people. All this is accepted as sure truth, not to be called in question. I pray that you may at once come to this. Get firmly to believe that “the blood of Jesus Christ, God’s dear Son, cleanseth us from all sin”; that His sacrifice is complete and fully accepted of God on man’s behalf, so that he that believeth on Jesus is not condemned. Believe these truths as you believe any other statements; for the difference between common faith and saving faith lies mainly in the subjects upon which it is exercised. Believe the witness of God just as you believe the testimony of your own father or friend. “If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater.”
So far you have made an advance toward faith; only one more ingredient is needed to complete it, which is trust. Commit yourself to the merciful God; rest your hope on the gracious gospel; trust your soul on the dying and living Saviour; wash away your sins in the atoning blood; accept His perfect righteousness, and all is well. Trust is the lifeblood of faith; there is no saving faith without it. The Puritans were accustomed to explain faith by the word “recumbency.” It meant leaning upon a thing. Lean with all your weight upon Christ. It would be a better illustration still if I said, fall at full length, and lie on the Rock of Ages. Cast yourself upon Jesus; rest in Him; commit yourself to Him. That done, you have exercised saving faith. Faith is not a blind thing; for faith begins with knowledge. It is not a speculative thing; for faith believes facts of which it is sure. It is not an unpractical, dreamy thing; for faith trusts, and stakes its destiny upon the truth of revelation. That is one way of describing what faith is.
Let me try again. Faith is believing that Christ is what He is said to be, and that He will do what He has promised to do, and then to expect this of Him. The Scriptures speak of Jesus Christ as being God, God is human flesh; as being perfect in His character; as being made of a sin-offering on our behalf; as bearing our sins in His own body on the tree. The Scripture speaks of Him as having finished transgression, made an end of sin, and brought in everlasting righteousness. The sacred records further tell us that He “rose again from the dead,” that He “ever liveth to make intercession for us,” that He has gone up into the glory, and has taken possession of Heaven on the behalf of His people, and that He will shortly come again “to judge the world in righteousness, and his people with equity.” We are most firmly to believe that it is even so; for this is the testimony of God the Father when He said, “This is my beloved Son; hear ye him.” This also is testified by God the Holy Spirit; for the Spirit has borne witness to Christ, both in the inspired Word and by divers miracles, and by His working in the hearts of men. We are to believe this testimony to be true.
Faith also believes that Christ will do what He has promised; that since He has promised to cast out none that come to Him, it is certain that He will not cast usout if we come to Him. Faith believes that since Jesus said, “The water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everasting life, it must be true; and if we get this living Water from Christ it will abide in us, and will well up within us in streams of holy life. Whatever Christ has promised to do He will do, and we must believe this, so as to look for pardon, justification, preservation, and eternal glory from His hands, according as He has promised them to believers in Him.
Then comes the next necessary step. Jesus is what He is said to be, Jesus will do what He says He will do; therefore we must each one trust Him, saying, “He will be to me what He says He is, and He will do to me what He has promised to do; I leave myself in the hands of Him who is appointed to save, that He may save me. I rest upon His promise that He will do even as He has said.” This is a saving faith, and he that hath it hath everlasting life. Whatever his dangers and difficulties, whatever his darkness and depression, whatever his infirmities and sins, he that believeth thus on Christ Jesus is not condemned, and shall never come into condemnation.
May that explanation be of some service! I trust it may be used by the Spirit of God to direct my reader into immediate peace. “Be not afraid; only believe.” Trust, and be at rest.
My fear is lest the reader should rest content with understanding what is to be done, and yet never do it. Better the poorest real faith actually at work, than the best ideal of it left in the region of speculation. The great matter is to believe on the Lord Jesus at once. Never mind distinctions and definitions. A hungry man eats though he does not understand the composition of his food, the anatomy of his mouth, or the process of digestion: he lives because he eats. Another far more clever person understands thoroughly the science of nutrition; but if he does not eat he will die, with all his knowledge. There are, no doubt, many at this hour in Hell who understood the doctrine of faith, but did not believe. On the other hand, not one who has trusted in the Lord Jesus has ever been cast out, though he may never have been able intelligently to define his faith. Oh dear reader, receive the Lord Jesus into your soul, and you shall live forever! “He that believeth in Him hath everlasting life.”
cont'

 

What is faith? It is made up of three things—knowledge, belief, and trust.
C H Spurgeon
1. Knowledge Comes First.

“How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?” I want to be informed of a fact before I can possibly believe it. “Faith cometh by hearing”; we must first hear, in order that we may know what is to be believed. “They that know thy name shall put their trust in thee.” A measure of knowledge is essential to faith; hence the importance of getting knowledge. “Incline your ear, and come unto me; hear, and your soul shall live.” Such was the word of the ancient prophet, and it is the word of the gospel still. Search the Scriptures and learn what the Holy Spirit teacheth concerning Christ and His salvation. Seek to know God: “For he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” May the Holy Spirit give you the spirit of knowledge, and of the fear of the Lord! Know the gospel: know what the good news is, how it talks of free forgiveness, and of change of heart, of adoption into the family of God, and of countless other blessings. Know especially Christ Jesus the Son of God, the Saviour of men, united to us by His human nature, and yet one with God; and thus able to act as Mediator between God and man, able to lay His hand upon both, and to be the connecting link between the sinner and the Judge of all the earth. Endeavour to know more and more of Christ Jesus. Endeavour especially to know the doctrine of the sacrifice of Christ; for the point upon which saving faith mainly fixes itself is this— “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them.” Know that Jesus was “made a curse for us, as it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.” Drink deep of the doctrine of the substitutionary work of Christ; for therein lies the sweetest possible comfort to the guilty sons of men, since the Lord “made him to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” Faith begins with knowledge.
2. The mind goes on to believe that these things are true.

The soul believes that God is, and that He hears the cries of sincere hearts; that the gospel is from God; that justification by faith is the grand truth which God hath revealed in these last days by His Spirit more clearly than before. Then the heart believes that Jesus is verily and in truth our God and Saviour, the Redeemer of men, the Prophet, Priest, and King of His people. All this is accepted as sure truth, not to be called in question. I pray that you may at once come to this. Get firmly to believe that “the blood of Jesus Christ, God’s dear Son, cleanseth us from all sin”; that His sacrifice is complete and fully accepted of God on man’s behalf, so that he that believeth on Jesus is not condemned. Believe these truths as you believe any other statements; for the difference between common faith and saving faith lies mainly in the subjects upon which it is exercised. Believe the witness of God just as you believe the testimony of your own father or friend. “If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater.”
3. One More Ingredient - Trust.

So far you have made an advance toward faith; only one more ingredient is needed to complete it, which is trust. Commit yourself to the merciful God; rest your hope on the gracious gospel; trust your soul on the dying and living Saviour; wash away your sins in the atoning blood; accept His perfect righteousness, and all is well. Trust is the lifeblood of faith; there is no saving faith without it. The Puritans were accustomed to explain faith by the word “recumbency.” It meant leaning upon a thing. Lean with all your weight upon Christ. It would be a better illustration still if I said, fall at full length, and lie on the Rock of Ages. Cast yourself upon Jesus; rest in Him; commit yourself to Him. That done, you have exercised saving faith. Faith is not a blind thing; for faith begins with knowledge. It is not a speculative thing; for faith believes facts of which it is sure. It is not an unpractical, dreamy thing; for faith trusts, and stakes its destiny upon the truth of revelation. That is one way of describing what faith is.”

Source: “All of Grace” Charles H Spurgeon

 

My theology is from the bible. I am not sure where you got yours.
EPH 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

No faith no salvation no exceptions.

 

I don't think my esteemed friend, E,W, & F, would disagree that one cannot be saved without faith.

The challenge, though, is when faith comes and why it comes.

Does our approaching God in faith give God permission to work in our lives?

Does God's electing purposes lead to our faith?

So, in essence, it is quite unfair to to say that E,W, & F is using non-biblical theology.

Rather than talking past him, why not work through questions with him by asking questions to clarify.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

According to post 57 he thinks he got saved without faith.

 

This is not a helpful line of thinking. Remember, it was the Reformed theologians who popularized and invented the phrase "Soli Fide." No theologian has denied the necessity of faith. If you can find one Calvinist Theologian who does, please let me know. the post #57 is a distinction in the Ordo Salutis, not an attack on faith. He was clearly arguing the proper Ordo Salutis. While this is outside the scope of this conversation, it is an item of discussion.

Part of the reason I dislike discussing this is because of the stereotypes that are absolutely wrong. As noted, I believe God is completely sovereign and man is free to choose. Man is totally responsible for his decisions, but God is totally sovereign in all things. Faith and Repentance are required, but we do not deny God's Sovereignty.

My fear is that libertine free-will denies God's Sovereignty.

 

Did you miss the word "if...?"

Again, the issue is not faith itself. No Calvinist I know would say it is possible to be saved without faith.

The question is where does the faith come from--is it inherent or are we given it?

Another question is does faith come as a result of God's election or does it allow God's election.

But, again, no one I'm aware of would say that faith is absent.

The Archangel

 

Good Verses....

 

Equating Calvinists with Jehovah's Witnesses is tantamount to calling Calvinists unsaved.

You are very wrong in doing so...and I know you know better. So, your only reason to post these things is to intentionally insult your brothers and sisters who happen to be Calvinists. That's not "doing unto others," now is it?

Secondly, Calvinists do not have a problem with God giving man the ability to choose. We just read passages (like Genesis 6) where we see that man's heart desires only evil continually and we wonder how would any such heart ever desire God?

It isn't an issue of freely choosing. It is an issue of desire. God must make the unwilling willing.

The Archangel

 

Look what Spurgeon said above about faith;

If I understand Spurgeon correctly here (and I think I do), saving faith is not some special kind of faith unlike common faith that unregenerate men exercise every day when they believe their father or a friend. The difference is the object of faith.

This is the very argument that I, and DHK, and several others have advanced many times. Man is born with the God-given ability to believe, it is the object of faith which is important. Spurgeon contradicts many Calvinists who claim that saving faith is some sort of special faith unlike common faith here. A man does not need to be regenerated to believe, but he does need to be informed and moved by the Holy Spirit to place his faith in Christ.

 

I agree with what you also see as the purpose of the comparison Snow has given. It's simply prattle and this is an oft engaged tactic.

And you are correct, it is God that makes the unwilling willing. This is Scriptural.

Somehow man wants to think he had some great part in this process, grasping for credit, not understanding the Scriptures. Thank God for His reaching into our dark hearts, making us willing, and saving us.

 

I find it utterly amusing and entertaining that men like Spurgeon, Owen, Calvin &c are cast aside when quoted by a Calvinist by several on the BB, (as heretical, false teachers, and more) and the Calvinist is called (for doing so) a "follower of men," one who gets their theology "from man" or (I love this one) "a stack of reformed books" and the biggest jab "not from Scriptures."

But lo and behold when a non or anti-cal finds an excerpt from any of these theologians/authors (albeit it is generally used out of context) it is fine and dandy to use it, and they agree whole-heartedly with what they've found and use it they will, (even though, again, it is out of context) yet said person is excused from the accusations laid on others of being a follower of men.

:laugh: :thumbsup:

 

Generally speaking, it is Calvinists that often post Calvinist authors and not scripture to support their doctrine. If I see a Calvinist author say something inconsistent or contradictory with "mainstream" Reformed belief, I am going to point it out. This was one such instance.

Spurgeon was right THIS TIME. His next sermon, who knows? He often appears torn in his writings and freely admitted he was often inconsistent with mainstream Reformed theology.

 

And just what is my "kind"??

Why on earth would you say I would like to relegate you to hell? That is very offensive.

 

EWF, what does this post mean? Can you explain it? Maybe we can clear a lot up if you do.

 

Spurgeon was not inconsistent in most cases. Rather, I think some people's understanding of reformed theology is lacking, but Spurgeon's view is very close to my own.