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Featured Water in John 3:5?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Reynolds, Jun 30, 2021.

  1. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    What is the water in this verse?
    For many years, I held it to be one thing. Now I am wavering between 3 possible meanings
     
  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member
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  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    I believe the reference is to being born physically, our first "birth." This is how Nicodemus understood the concept of being born anew.
     
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I'm not sure defining it as a physical birth makes sense (to see the kingdom you first have to exist).
     
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  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Lol, exactly the same here except I say I waffle...
     
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  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
    5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
    7 Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
    8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` YLT

    I waffle between 'born of water, even the Spirit'

    ...and

    'born of water (of the word, i.e. the gospel) and the Spirit'

    IMO, both of these renderings jibe with the same OT passages (like Ezek 36).

    It's clear that 'born from above' and 'born of the Spirit are synonymous.

    Before one can 'see' the kingdom one must first be born of the Spirit.

    Before one can 'enter' the kingdom one must be born of water and the Spirit.
     
    #6 kyredneck, Jun 30, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2021
  7. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    That's what I used to think, but Macarthur blew that view in 1000 pieces.
     
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  8. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Yeah. I don't waffle. Once I make my mind up, it's set.;)
    Just might take me a while to finally make it up.
     
    #8 Reynolds, Jun 30, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2021
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Born of the water might refer to being rebirthed by the scriptures
     
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  10. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    τὸ γεγεννημένον ἐκ τῆς σαρκὸς σάρξ ἐστιν John 3:6 1st part. The having been generated out of the flesh, flesh is
    Heb 2:14 YLT Seeing, then, the children (? born of woman of the one of V 6,7 ?) have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil --
    V's 6,7 YLT and one in a certain place did testify fully, saying, 'What is man, that Thou art mindful of him, or a son of man, that Thou dost look after him? Thou didst make him some little less than messengers,

    Adam, the man and woman of Genesis 1:26 were created, some little less than, messengers (angels). ? Of the flesh, with the soul being (life thereof) in the blood Lev 17:11

    Adam was created, of flesh, some little less than angels, not fit to see not enter, nor inherit the kingdom of God. Adam was created for the purpose of the, Son of Man, the Son of God who God appointed Heir ( To Inherit) all things, including the kingdom of God Hebrews 1:2 A name above all names V 4

    Nothing could, nor would, ever be inherited by anyone unless the Son of God, the Son of Man, inherited it first.

    1 Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

    To date Jesus of Nazareth the Son of God, the Son of Man is the only one created and or born of woman who has experienced that? What about verse 50 : Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    Did that verse apply to Jesus? ------- Consider Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.


    Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. said Jesus
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    John MacArthur's effort is without merit. First he dismisses Nicodemus's stated understanding of the phrase as Nicodemus not stating his view, Nicodemus did not mean what he said, according to MacArthur. False teachers make a practice of claiming scripture does not mean what it says.

    MacArthur seems to gloss over Christ's statement that what is born of flesh is flesh, which supports born of water meaning born of flesh.

    Next, the good Doctor never addresses why being born of the Spirit constitutes a second birth, again making the born anew phrase solid support for our first physical birth.

    Finally John MacArthur omits the idea that some Jews thought because they were of Abraham's blood line, they were already chosen to enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus says nope, you must be born anew!

    Thus Dr. MacArthur's arguments against physical birth were without merit. Now, how about his argument in favor of born of water referring to spiritual cleansing, what were his claims?

    First he referenced Numbers 19:1-19 which refers to water being used ceremonially in spiritual cleansing. But the passage does not ever mention being born of water. Next Isaiah 4:4 is cited, which refers to washed and rinsed, but not to being born of water. In Isaiah 32:15, the Spirit is poured out upon us, but water is not mentioned. Isaiah 44:3 does refer to water being poured out on the land (physical blessing) and the Spirit being poured out on offspring (spiritual blessing) but born of water is nowhere in sight.

    Next he supports Spiritual rebirth (the New Covenant) but that is not at issue, to be born of the Spirit does indeed refer to Spiritual Birth. So a prove "A" and then claim "B" has been proven argument. Next he shows "regeneration" to be an old Testament promise, but again this truth does not support in the slightest that born of water does not mean born physically.

    Next MacArthur addresses a strawman, physical rebirth, but that is not at issue. Then he addresses entering the kingdom based on our own works, again not at issue.

    Finally John MacArthur closes by pointing out that our understanding of spiritual things is very limited. Again not at issue.

    In summary Dr. MacArthur's argument turns out to be 1000 pieces of fluff, providing no evidence against being born of water meaning physical birth.
     
    #11 Van, Jul 1, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2021
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  12. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    KISS keep it

    But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, (singular) that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, (singular) that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;
    But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels Heb 2:6,7
    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 2:7

    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened (made alive, regenerated) by the Spirit:

    What is man, (singular) that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, (singular) that thou visitest him?

    1 Cor 15:45,46 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; ( of flesh) and afterward (after the resurrection) that which is spiritual.(of spirit)

    Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, (death) and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Being made alive from death)

    Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
    Acts 13:34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

    John 1:14 Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο
    John 1:14 And the Word flesh became ------------------------------------HOW? Matt 1:18-26? AGAIN, how? Gal 4:4? How?

    John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.



    IMHO The correct question is not what is man but why was man (singular) created? Was it because the devil had been a sinner from the beginning? Because the devil was a sinner from the beginning, was man, (singular) necessary for the son of man, (singular) the Son of God? See 1 John 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
     
  13. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Share? Macarthur's view? C & P perfectly fine.
     
  14. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    I will try to find it and link it. Like everything of his, he has multiple points. Its central premise is the Jews did not equate water to physical birth. They equated it to cleansing.
     
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  15. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Eph 5:25-27

    What is that in bold speaking of?

    The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21

    And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matt 3:16,17

    Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!

    Exactly what baptism is it by which one is saved? Exactly what were your sins washed away in? When - ? And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1 Cor 15:17 V 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    Dead in corruption see Acts 13:34, and on the third day, was raised out of the dead, Regenerated, quickened see 1 Peter 3:18

    And Jesus, when he was baptized, <DEAD) went up straightway out of the water: <Resurrected) and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Matt 3:16,17
    Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


    John 3 is not about baptism IMHO. Here is a thought, Are all (other than Jesus) born of woman, DEAD, in trespass and sin?
     
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  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    1 Peter 3:20-21, ". . . while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us . . . ." 1 Peter 3:21-22, ". . . (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: . Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. . . ."
    By water baptism the already saved believer signifies will "walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:3-4) That we will no longer live for this world but for God who saved us.
    So Noah and family where saved from the world that was by the flood. 2 Peter 3:6, ". . . the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: . . ."
     
    #16 37818, Jul 2, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2021
  17. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
    More importantly, which statement makes sense:
    • You must both physically exist and be spiritually reborn, to enter the Kingdom of God.
    • You must both be cleansed and be spiritually reborn, to enter the Kingdom of God.
     
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  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    The importance of the water is not “is it physical baptism”. The importance of the water is that it is “cleansing” to prepare for spiritual rebirth. Cleansing alone is not enough, one must also be spiritually reborn. One is not spiritually reborn without being cleansed.

    Matthew 3 [NASB]
    1 Now in those days John the Baptist *came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying,

    2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” 3 For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said,

    “THE VOICE OF ONE CALLING OUT IN THE WILDERNESS,
    ‘PREPARE THE WAY OF THE LORD,
    MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT!’”

    4 Now John himself had a garment of camel’s hair and a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 At that time Jerusalem was goingout to him, and all Judea and all the region around the Jordan; 6 and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins.

    7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrathto come? 8 Therefore produce fruit consistent with repentance; 9 and do not assume that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tellyou that God is able, from these stones, to raise up children for Abraham. 10 And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore, every tree that does not bear good fruit is being cut down and thrown into the fire.

    11 “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”​
    • John the Baptist offers the same message … to enter the Kingdom, one must repent and be cleansed of sin, but this is only the preparation for a mightier work of the Holy Spirit that will transform with a refining fire.
    Acts of the Apostles 2 [NASB]
    37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peterand the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what are we to do?” 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”
    • Those summoned by God and “pierced” at Pentecost were told the same thing by the Apostle Peter … ‘repent and be baptized’ is the cleansing for the forgiveness of sins, that is followed by “and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” which is the “and the Spirit” of the dual rebirth of entering the Kingdom.
    Over and over, the words, typology and reality is repeated. Those drawn into the Kingdom are “cleansed” and “transformed/indwelt”. We really ARE born of the water of cleansing and His transforming Holy Spirit.
     
  19. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Question/questions

    But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7 NKJV
    and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed[fn] us from our sins in His own blood, Rev 1:5 NKJV

    Exactly what cleanses sin? Frees from sin? Blood?

    1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; --- Can we see the blood of Christ in that verse? Is the blood in the word died? Consider: Isa 53:12 KJV Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. And, Lev 17:11 Darby for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul.

    Now is the following just important for our salvation? The resurrection from the dead of Jesus Christ, to date, the only one who has been raised from the dead to die no more, the only one who has been raised from the dead, no more to return to corruption?

    1 Cor 15:17 KJV And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Why was Christ raised? Doesn't the Therefore/Wherefore between Phil 2:7,8 make because of the obedience unto death of Jesus the Son? Learned obedience per Heb 5:7,8 Obedience of faith? through being Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, --
    Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him,
    Do we see that same resurrection in Rev 1:5 relative to his shed blood, dying for our sins, and there is is spoken of a birth, firstborn from the dead?

    The resurrection of Christ is the, washing of regeneration by which we were/are being saved ἔσωσεν Verb - Aorist Active

    The blood in Titus 3:5 is seen in the, according to mercy,

    In Romans 3:25 this is seen; By the Faith of the Father, God, in the Son Heb 5:8 Phil 2:7 learning and becoming obedient unto death, shedding of his blood, He, God the Father before placed the Son as propitiation, place of mercy.

    According to mercy, obedience of faith, He, God saved us through washing of regeneration and renewing of Holy Spirit.

    That can also be seen in Acts 2:32,33
    This Jesus hath God raised up, (Firstborn from the dead) whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, ( Thus, Washing away our sins and continuing to do so upon confession of our sin, in his blood) which ye now see and hear.
     
  20. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Does water clean sin or does blood clean sin.

    Was the obedient water baptism of Christ a prophetic picture of his shed blood, unto all righteousness?
     
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