We can all do this and make a stand.

Wow! I bet that would make an interesting poll. "Have you ever romantically kissed anyone other than your spouse?" and "Did you ever romantically kiss your spouse-to-be before you were married?". I think I know where the vast majority would be on those two questions, even on the Baptist Board.

By the way, my answers would be 1)No and 2) Yes. And I think my first answer would be a distinct minority.

 

Kids WILL abstain from having sex if parents raise them in a Christian home, spend time with them, have jobs for them to do, and know where they are at all times. It's hard to have sex when you're never alone with the opposite sex. </font>[/QUOTE]You cannot watch them 100% of the time. Lots of kids get pregnant, despite being taught abstinence. Hormones are powerful chemicals. I would imagine many of the teens at your church are having sex and didn't inform you about it.

Did I lump EVERYONE? I don't think so. Yet if what you say is true, why don't you and your entire church run down to an abortion center and ask to take a child from a patient if they will carry it to term? Or go down to any orphanage and start applying?

 

By the way, I have set up a poll on kissing in the Forum for Polls.

 

Colorado! You're jumping to conclusions here! You said:

Our daughter is a married woman who got pregnant with her two daughters while her HUSBAND used condoms. She cannot use birthcontrol pills. They make her sick. She's planning a tubal next month.

No. I went to Birthright as a volunteer for years and helped with fund raisers to help the young women who chose to keep their babies with clothing, baby furniture, etc. I'm a little old to be adopting a bunch of children! PLUS.... There are so many couples waiting to adopt.

ME? A Liberal????? Literal but not Liberal!

Diane

 

Sue and Ken, I wasn't able to tell my husband I'd never been kissed but I was able to give him a virgin bride.
Diane

 

I was 38 years old when I got married and had been celibate all those years. My wife was not a virgin as she had been briefly married before.

 

Diane, I did not want to dig into your personal situation, but you are the one who brought it up. Did your daughter not get pregnant as an unmarried person, despite your teaching of abstinence? If this is not correct, I apologize for misunderstanding, but I recall reading this in an earlier thread. Don't get me wrong, you did a good and noble thing by adopting your grandson, but my point was even Christian kids will not always abstain from sex.

 

As a teacher for 6 years, here is what I have learned about kids. They are looking for direction from the teacher, parent / authority. They will pretty much do and live up to whatever the parent, teacher / adult expects from them. If you expect little, that is exactly what they will give you. If you expect a lot, most of the time, with few exceptions, that is what they will give you. I think it would be interesting to look at the statistics of STD's, AIDS, and teen pregnancies before sex education came to public schools. You know, back when those narrow minded conservatives used to teach the Biblical, Godly way of abstinence. I wonder what the difference would be.

Joseph Botwinick

 

BTW,

Thanks Jailminister. I just signed the petition.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Actually, teen pregnancy rates are on the decline! Looks like education rather than ignorance works!

http://www.teenpregnancy.org/about/announcements/pr/2003/release6_25_03.asp

 

"In response to the new and encouraging data, Sarah Brown, Director of the National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy issued the following statement:

'This nation is now moving into a second decade of steady and robust declines in teen births. Credit for this good news goes to teens themselves who increasingly recognize the importance of waiting to have sex and waiting to get pregnant and have children. While many adults continue to get bogged down in debates about abstinence and contraception, teens are charting a different course.'"

Very interesting. Thanks ColoradoIFB. Aparently, you are right. Education really is working instead of using ignorant liberal methods.

Joseph Botwinick

 

We actually had a abstinence program where I went to high school. Our teacher cared about us very much and expected a great, great deal from us. (His name was Mr. Phillips - great guy!) Everyone in my class went through it. The results? Four of our students were pregnant when they received their diploma on gradulation night. Countless others still had sex (being in a locker room, you hear the stories). Personally, I didn't, but many of the people did, even the pastor's kids. Perhaps the student who had the most expectation placed upon her ended up pregant, dropping out, and marrying the father, even though her father forbid her to go out with anyone who wasn't a Christian and wouldn't let her stay in a room along with a member of the opposite sex. Somehow, the two found their way around that rule.

Oh, and I graduated with a class around 60.

While there would be a correlation, there are many, many more factors than the fact that abstinence isn't practiced anymore. In fact, statitstics show that a curriculum where abstinence is promoted as the only 100% proof against STF's and pregnancy, as well as explaining other methods of birth control, is the best way. Abstinence-only programs are not that effective - and how could they be? They promote a worldview that is foreign to the culture that many children live in. Personally, many, many children have parents who don't tell their children anything about sex. I'm glad that schools are at least trying to educate them. It's better than MTV and the movies of today doing it.

 

Colorado, no you ARE correct. Erin got pregnant at 19 but now has two other children conceived while they were using condoms as birth control.

Yes... Erin got pregnant even tho she was taught that sex outside marriage is a sin. However, we lived in an area of the country where WE were the freaks....... Bible Thumpers.

No offense taken, Colorado. Thanks for caring tho.

Diane

 

Scott,

This may be true where you went to school, but this does not hold true according to the statistics presented to us by IFB's link. Therefore, one could not make any statistical generalizations based on your antedotal observations. Also, there are probably many other variables involved, such as inconsistent messages being presented by the church, school and media which will invalidate your conclusions as well. You are right about one thing, though. Following the Bible is foriegn to the ways of this world. But, then again, that doesn't make it the way of this world better (Isaiah 29:14, 1 Corinthians 2:1-5, and 1 Corinthians 1:18-31).

Joseph Botwinick

 

You provided an anecdotal account: "If you expect a lot, most of the time, with few exceptions, that is what they will give you." I offered a contrary one.

Nor could we make them from yours. I wasn't trying to make any generalizations, other than that your statement I pasted above was not always the case.

I find it interesting that the only reason you give as to why pregnancy and STD's have risen as they have is because of the introduction of sex education. However, when what you want to believe happens doesn't, you complain about other variables. Is it not possible that the inconsistent messages by the media have more to do with the levels of pregnancy than sex education?

And?


I will also call your attention to the pdf link on the site that was presented with all the statistics. The "education" that you got so excited about is exactly the kind of education that I mentioned in my previous post - that of abstinence as the best way, but also providing information about condoms and other birth control methods. "[Students] need to know how to avoid pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases. That means information about saying no and about using protection." and "For [teenagers], it's not about abstinence or contraception; it's about abstinence and protection...[Students] know the best way to protect themselves is not to have sex...but [they] also need to know about contraception."

Is this the kind of education that you espouse, Joseph?

 

No I don't Scott. The point is that Abstinence is a good option and isn't as unrealistic as the liberals here would like to believe. Also, the point is that the same website attributes the decline in teen birth rates to embracing the Biblical teaching of Abstinence.

Joseph Botwinick

 

"The national teen birth rate continued to drop in 2002, the 11th straight year of declines, according to new figures released today by the National Center for Health Statistics, a branch of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. The teen birth rate fell to 43 births per 1,000 females aged 15-19 in 2002, a record low. These new figures represent a five percent decline from 2001 and a 28 percent decline from 1990."

It is also Interesting to note that I didn't ask about the "Birth rates". I asked about the teen pregnancy rate. It would be expected in our post modern day holocaust against the unborn that the birth rate would be on the decline. That could be because they are murdering their babies before they're born. But, that is not really what I am looking for. I am looking for the difference in teen pregnancies.

 

I urge you to go back and read the article again. The article states, "That document [which is in the pdf and contains the quotes I listed] and the continued good news about teen births make clear that while the adults are arguing about this issue, the teens are finding solutions." Students are giving credit for the lower pregnancy rates NOT to abstinence education, but giving credit to the type of education that I talked about - combining abstinence with contraceptive education. The pdf provided evidence from students that abstinence only education isn't enough.

 

More information concerning abstinence-only programs:

To date, no published studies of abstinence-only programs have found consistent and significant program effects on delaying the onset of intercourse.

The National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy’s report titled Emerging Answers: Research Findings on Programs to Reduce Teen Pregnancy identifies successful teenage pregnancy-prevention initiatives but indicates that none are abstinence-only programs. The report indicates that evidence is not conclusive about such programs but that, thus far, the information in “not encouraging.” In fact, the report states that none of the evaluated abstinence-only programs “showed an overall positive effect on sexual behavior, nor did they affect contraceptive use among sexually active participants.” (D. Kirby, Emerging Answers: Research Findings on Programs to Reduce Teen Pregnancy (The National Campaign to Prevent Teen Pregnancy, May 2001).)


Of the previous studies of abstinence-only programs, none have found consistent and significant program effects on delaying the onset of intercourse. At least one has provided strong evidence that the program did not delay the onset of intercourse. To date, there are six published studies of abstinence-only programs. None have found consistent and significant program effects on delaying the onset of intercourse. At least one has provided strong evidence that the program did not delay the onset of intercourse. (C. Bartels, et.al, Federally Funded Abstinence-only Sex Education Programs: A Meta-Evaluation. Paper presented at the Fifth Biennial Meeting of the Society for Research on Adolescence, San Diego, CA, February 11, 1994)

Proponents of abstinence-only-until-marriage programs often conduct their own in-house evaluations and cite them as proof that their programs are effective. Outside experts have found, however, that they are inadequate, methodologically unsound, or inconclusive based on methodological limitations. (B.Wilcox, et.al., Adolescent Abstinence Promotion Programs: An Evaluation of Evaluations. Paper predsnted at the Annual Meeting of the American Public Health Association, New York, NY, November 18, 1996.)

The CDC’s Research to Classroom Project identifies curricula that have shown evidence of reducing sexual risk behaviors. A recent paper written by the White House Office of National AIDS Policy points out that “none of the curricula on the current list of programs uses an ‘abstinence-only’ approach.” (Office of National AIDS Policy. The White House, Youth and HIV/AIDS 2000: A New American Agenda (Washington, DC: Government Printing Office, 2000), p.14)

---------

So there we have it. BTW, this information can be found at the SIECUS main website.

 

Diane, I do care, and I am glad thing worked out for all of you. Life throws us surprises, especially our kids. Your daughter is lucky to have had parents to help her through what must have been an embarrasing and trying situation.

I can tell you that being a parent is something there is no school on earth that could anticipate everything you could have to deal with.

CFB