Featured Were Old Tesament Saints Born Again?

isn't it true that in the OT passages, the HS came upon persons to do specific tasks, fulfill office/roles/ that he appeared to be there/depart, NOT perm sealing/indweling as in the NT times?

How could He, since jesus said that :when He came" as in pentacost, that he started a new way of dealing with men/ Not externally, but internally now residing within ALL ?

 

So what is the grace that we are now under?

When we were under the law, did that not mean we were under the penalty of eternal death brought about by dying to the or in the flesh? That is, in dying we would surly die, as God told Adam.

Yet we still die, therefore what is the grace we are now under?

I would say:

Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus (< the grace we are under) might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus (< That being the grace we are under) shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present with you. 2 Cor. 4:10,11,14

 

NNE was saved under the old covenant. They were still in their sins until Christ sacrificed Himself for us. Their was no remission of sins until Christ's blood was offered as the sacrifice for sins. This is theology 101. Even my 12yr old understands this basic truth. They did not inherit eternal life until they were made coheirs of the promise. And this did not happen until the New & eternal Covenant was in force by the blood, person, work, & word of Jesus Christ. There was no salvation until the New Covenant. To believe otherwise is in direct contradiction to Scripture & could reveal a profound misunderstanding of the relationship between the old & New Covenants.


How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. (Heb 9:14-18)

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; (Heb 10:16-21)

 

So then......what about Abraham? Was he "saved?" Were the words "his faith was counted as righteousness" written in error?

And, do try to leave out the snide comments about "Theology 101" and "12-yr-olds." Such things do not serve the conversation.

The Archangel

 

Abraham, and everyone who made animal sacrificies.....(shedding of blood...OT types of Christ's death........this only stayed their sins for a year, and then it was time for another sin sacrifice to push their sins ahead another year....but the blood of bulls and goats couldn't blot them out.....only Christ's shed blood could/can).........were kept under God's Grace until the Messiah was crucified. buried, and arisen to the Father, to sit on His right hand, to make intercession for us. They were looking to the coming Messiah(the cross, iow), whereas, we look back......

 

The Grace of God which bringeth salvation hath appeared unto all men....Titus 2. Peter stated that there is no other name given in heaven, among men, whereby we must be saved. The Grace of God is Jesus Christ.

The only thing the Law could do was bring us unto, not into, but unto, Grace(Jesus Christ). It takes Grace(Jesus Christ), to put us into Christ.

The body dies, but the soul of those who are saved, will never die. The physical body isn't into Grace, only the soul. The physical body dies because the stain of death remains upon it until He calls it from the grave, and make that which was sown physical, a spiritual body(1 Cor. 15)

Without Jesus dying.......yea.....being risen........we would be w/o hope in this world. If we had hope in Jesus Christ in this world only, we would be of all men, most miserable....for our Hope is risen, and on the right hand of the Father in heaven.

 

Here is where I believe you to be incorrect. You are correct concerning the animal sacrifices compared to the sacrifice of Jesus. Now think about this. Abraham is not said to have died in grace but he died in faith. Faith to come, "My son God will provide himself a lamb." The faith to come was the seed of Abraham, the Christ, the Son of God who would die for our, inclusive of Abraham's sins. Abraham died in faith, the faith to come see Gal.3:23 Before the faith came.

The blood of the promised seed was the faith of Abraham.

I will try and prove to you and others, the grace of God, was God the Father raising Jesus his Son from the dead.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation. Salvation had a beginning moment, a moment it was authored, that being when, "being made perfect," took place.
That was the moment of beginning of being saved, past tense, condition for salvation now being present. and this had something to do with the one being made perfect having learned obedience through sufferings. Being obedient unto death even the death of the cross.

So at that moment of having been made perfect what was it called that brought salvation for man? What appeared at that moment that brought salvation?

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men. ------ Having been made perfect by the grace of God, Jesus became the author of salvation.

What took place in the past brought the condition for man in the present of Eph 2:8 haven been written.

Actually what is it that took place for man to be able to be given the gift of God.

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; Christ was obedient unto death, the faith of Christ. --------- But was that enough, would Christ dying for our sins be enough to save us? What if he had not been raised?

1 Cor. 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. ------- What is the grace of God that brought salvation for all men?

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead; )

Compare the above to this verse.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

If the righteousness of God be by the law, Christ would be dead in vain and there would be no grace, the resurrection would not have been necessary.

Through the obedience of Christ unto death even the death of the cross and God the Father raising Christ from the dead, Salvation was wrought for man.
Grace through the faith. ---- The faith of Christ.

WE are kept also just as the OT saints were.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God (the gift of the Holy Spirit which we received through the faith of Christ) through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Gal, 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise (Holy Spirit) by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. (the sheep, the called of God, the elect, the ones removed from unbelief to belief.)

To open their eyes, to turn from darkness to light, and the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. Acts 26:18

The called according to purpose.

 

The reason I prefer sanctified (set apart) unto salvation rather than saved.

What was done to bring us salvation was done in the past putting into effect the present condition of being under grace. We are heirs of the grace of life. Heirs, not yet inheritors.

Hope convicted1 reads this also for it is relative to my post to him.

 

There are several problems in this statement, and I point them out simply for edification purposes--and to make you think and interact more deeply with the text.

You state: "Abraham, and everyone who made animal sacrifices"...had to do so yearly...

This is not necessarily so. You are viewing Abraham anachronistically through the Law of Exodus, Leviticus, etc. We know Abraham sacrificed, that's pretty much without debate. However, we don't see his sacrifices bringing "righteousness" to him. We clearly see Abraham's faith being counted as righteousness.

Now, in the performance of the sacrificial ritual under the Law, it was not understood that the sins were merely "pushed forward" for another year. Indeed, the text says that "atonement" was made.

Of course, we learn later--In Hebrews 10--that the blood of bulls and goats cannot and do not take a way sin. However, we must still deal with the Old Testament saying that "atonement" was made. (More on this below).

You state: "They were looking to the coming Messiah...whereas, we look back."

This is a fairly common misconception, although there are elements of this thought line that are not wrong. However, the thought line suggests that Abraham was trusting in Christ for his salvation, as were Moses, David, Daniel, etc. None of these men, or their contemporaries, were trusting in a God-Man from Nazareth named Jesus. Rather, all these men, were trusting in God--Yahweh--and living their lives according to His word. For Abraham this was trusting in the promise that God gave him. For Moses and David, this trust was expressed through right, lawful living while making "atonement" for their sins through the sacrificial system.

Now, how does all this fit together? How is "atonement" made in the Old Testament while Hebrews says the blood of bulls and goats can't take away sin?

Simply put: CHRIST. OK, we can all say "well, DUH!" now. But, here's how this works, according to Romans 3:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:21-26, ESV)​

We're all familiar with this passage. But, the answer to the dilemma at hand is in verse 25 and following.

What we see here is that God put forward Christ as a propitiation for one major purpose--to show His [God's] righteousness. Why would He need to do so? Because He passed over former sins in His divine forbearance.

Now, what does that mean?! It means that God counted the blood of bulls and goats as "atonement" and that He counted Abraham's faith as righteousness without punishing their sin. In other words, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. were never held to account for their sins. God counted the sins as forgiven, even though they weren't.

So, the primary reason Jesus came was to pay for those sins that God passed over in the past. This was absolutely necessary because God simply cannot "write off" sins. He can't say, "that's OK, don't worry about it, I'll just let it go." If He were to do so, He would cease to be God. All sin is against God and God, in His righteousness and justice is "required" to punish sin. Therefore, Jesus is the ultimate payment for the "passed over" sins of the Old Testament.

It is as if God put the sins of the "Old Testament Saints" on His credit card and paid the bill in Christ on the cross. It is in this way, and only this way, the sacrifices of the Law could be said to make "atonement." God could count the sins as atoned for since He knew He'd make payment in Christ.

This expresses one inescapable truth: There is no injustice with God. Every sin will be paid for--either by the sinner in hell for all eternity or in Christ on the cross.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Thanks for the reminder.


These are the saints we never hear about. Those who by faith in God who gave their best they could for their sins knowing God will save them because of His word. They could not even know what to do without His word and because of His word they did. In wait of the one who would crush the serpents head. We do need to praise God and be reminded of these saints. Their message speaks more than just words of all the messengers combined. Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. It is foolishness to discredit their faith. It is not ours to do when we or they are lead by His word not our own or their own desires.

 

Knight it was only after Pentecost that believers became the Temple of God through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You are trying to apply New Testament Christianity to the Old Testament.

 

Oh, I see your dilemma that causes you to have to rethink the Old Testament. You must be a five pointer.

 

The old testament saints was lead by His word which is Spirit and life, they had no life of their own. His word is supernatural, but not to those who do not want to believe. It can come from a burning bush or wicked men, because we all are wicked who need to be lead by His word not our own desires. The messenger isn't special only the message and who it has come from that is important.

We are born again by His word, this is what changes us, nothing that came from us, but what has come from above which is His word.


Galatians 6


6 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. 2 Carry each other’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 If anyone thinks they are something when they are not, they deceive themselves. 4 Each one should test their own actions. Then they can take pride in themselves alone, without comparing themselves to someone else, 5 for each one should carry their own load. 6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.

7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

 

For your answer, just keep reading. God answered your question at the end of the chapter. Abraham did not receive the promise of eternal life until the New Covenant. It couldn't be any clearer:

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Hebrews 11:39-40)

 

I think you're mixing up things--especially conflating two separate issues.

Abraham's faith being counted as righteousness was a separate from receiving the promise of many descendants.

Abraham did not see all of his descendants, but he did receive what might be referred to as "justification." That justification was something he had then and there. Isaac, in a sense, was the downpayment on the fulfilment of the promise.

These are two separate issues.

The Archangel

 

The faith to come covered their sins because God had called them unto righteousness just as the faith that has come covers the ones God calls since Christ.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Romans 4:6-8

God called them imputing to them the righteousness of God, Through:
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you. 1 Peter 1:18-20

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before the faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that the faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Gal. 3:22-25

1 Peter 1:21 Who by him (Jesus) do believe in God, (the Father) that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Lit. the faith of you and hope to be into God.

I believe that verse says it is by the faith of Jesus we believe in God who raised Jesus from the dead. Thereby we have faith that is Jesus's and hope from God