Featured Were Old Tesament Saints Born Again?

During the Great Tribulation (post-rapture) things will revert back to the conditions (ie: dispensation) prior to the Pauline Gentile Church.
Genetic Israel will be given a "second chance" during that brief period of time, and he that endures until the end shall be saved (martyrdom for most believers).

 

The text says "was counted as righteousness." Again, Romans 3 solves the problem. The language "was counted as righteousness" implies, strongly so, that Abraham had no righteousness of his own. I'd argue that any righteousness he had was the righteousness of Christ. But, that can only be understood from our viewpoint, having the whole counsel of Scripture.

So...if Abraham's faith wasn't counted as righteousness, what happened to him when he died? For that matter, what about Moses and Elijah?

The Archangel

 

The problem with this is that you equated me with Nicodemus, an unbeliever and, in doing so, you basically said "Archangel" is an unbeliever as Nicodemus is an unbeliever.

You really ought to know better and I do deserve better from you.

The Archangel

 

Sure.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

You do see the church starting in Acts, right? that the first converts were jews?

And trthat we have ALL of the NT to use today, not just pauline epistles?

 

1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

James 2:
Faith and Deeds

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

Romans 10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [Or concerning Christ]of Christ.

Romans 10
New King James Version (NKJV)
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.

Romans 4:5
However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.



This universal salvation to all who believe God saves bad people for doing nothing is not the whole council of God and will leave many before Jesus saying I never knew you, you evil doer.

Faith comes from God through hearing His word about Him or His word.

This faith from His word without deed is dead, this faith without love doing it for your self, for selfish reasons leaves you being nothing.

Rahab didn't do what she did without hearing about God. She heard what God did, for her to do what she did and what does it say "considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone."



Hebrews 5 :
Warning Against Falling Away

11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

 

They went to Paradise until after their sins were covered by the blood of Christ. No one can stand in God's presence without the imputed righteousness of Christ. When the beggar of Luke 16 died, he was taken to Abraham in Paradise, not to God in heaven; unless you think Abraham was in heaven & that hell is within speaking distance of the Father. Why is it so hard to accept the truth of Hebrews, that Abraham did not receive eternal life before Christ's sacrifice?

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Heb 11:39-40)

 

No, I see a slow transition away from a sect of Judaism in Acts to what we now call the Gentile Church under Pauline Doctrine.

There is internal evidence within the N.T. that will definitely guide you to that. For example, James is addressed "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad". And Paul clearly states in 3 places that he is "the apostle to the Gentiles". Even so, the revelation that (genetic) Israel would eventually be totally cut-off from fulfilling their acceptance of Messiah and setting up his Kingdom came very slowly to Paul. Upon Paul's imprisonment he could no longer "go to the synagogue", but Gentiles came to him in Rome. Following the destruction of the Temple in 70AD, the Jewish promise was cut-off. That's why Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks (of years) has a hiatus built in between the 69th and 70th week. You will not find the Gentile church in the O.T., it was a brand new "revelation" given to Paul.

When you try to apply the Gospels and especially the Parables to the Pauline-Gentile Church, confusion is sure to follow.

 

The premise of a "Gentile church" is unScriptural. The Church is made up of Jews & Gentiles alike; every believer from every tribe, tongue, & nation. The New Covenant is the only means of access to the Father & His grace. It is not a pause in God's "plan" for genetic descendants of Abraham. Besides, ALL land promises to Abraham were fulfilled. I would argue that is nigh unto blasphemy against Christ to teach that the New Covenant will be replaced by the old law so that a nation state may have an earthly kingdom for a short period of time. No single Israelite will be justified by the Law, but that is the logical conclusion to dispensational theology. There is one true Israel, & it isn't a political or genetic body. It is the Body & Church of Christ.


For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1Cor 12:13)

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Rom 9:6-8)

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. (Gal 3:7-12)

 

you do recognize that all the NT was inspired by God, peter/james/John etc NOT just paul? and that ALL of it was written to and for us?

 

The Church is made up of Jews and Gentiles, but it is no longer the Sect of the Nazarenes.
The possibility of total fulfillment of the prophecies concerning Israel (genetic Israel) and the Messiah were "cut off" in 70AD.


A vast number of prophecies are yet unfulfilled and they apply to genetic Israelites.
This is "scriptural".

 

Written "For us" but not "to us" (as Gentiles, Pauline Epistles excepted).
You do understand this simple concept, don't you?

I would advise everyone to sit down and read Romans ch. 11.

 

So you ONLY base doctrines/practices upon just pauline letters, no OT, no non paul writtings?

Nothing from the gospels either?

 

What is your definition of "vast"? Tens, scores, hundred? Name the vast unfulfilled promises.


All three promises God made to Abraham were fulfilled over 2000 years ago. Israel became a great nation in Egypt, possessed the land under Joshua and Solomon and through Jesus all the nations of the earth were blessed.

Great nation promise:
And he said, I am God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down into Egypt; for I will there make of thee a great nation: (Genesis 46:3)

Fulfilled:
Thy fathers went down into Egypt with threescore and ten persons; and now the LORD thy God hath made thee as the stars of heaven for multitude. (Deut 10:22)

David smote also Hadadezer, the son of Rehob, king of Zobah, as he went to recover his border at the river Euphrates. (2Samuel 8:3)

And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life. (1Kings 4:21)

And he reigned over all the kings from the river even unto the land of the Philistines, and to the border of Egypt. (2Chronicles 9:26)


Land promise fulfilled:
And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. (Joshua 21:43-45)

And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof. Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. (Joshua 23:14-15)

So Joshua let the people depart, every man unto his inheritance. (Joshua 24:28)

And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous: (Nehemiah 9:8)


Seed promise fulfilled:
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:29)

And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. (Heb 6:11-13, 19-20)

And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee... And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.(Acts 13:32-33, 39)

For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. (Rom 4:13-18)

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Rom 9:6-8)

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Gal 3:16-26)

 

If you believe that the Holy Spirit is the "architect" of the scriptures,
and you place Paul's Epistles as foundational, then you can find applications
throughout the Bible. If they reinforce Pauline doctrine then they apply.
If they are applicable to genetic Israel, then they apply to genetic Israel.

First witness: For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles

Second witness: Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle,... a teacher of the Gentiles

Third witness: Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

1 Cor 3:10a: According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation

There are many other "clues" in the New Testament.
"Hebrews" - the title alone should give you a clue.
James - "to the twelve tribes" (genetic Israel).
etc.

 

The ones that the religious Jews embrace to this very day...
the establishment of a glorious Davidic-like kingdom.
As Paul says, they (genetic Israel) are blinded for our sakes.
They rejected the "suffering servant" aspect of Messiah.

 

So peter writing about how marriages, and wives to husband not applicable to gentiles?

that John wriitings were just to jews?

Jesus gave us ALL the NT, to and for us for instruction and teaching!

 

I've heard all this before. This is a construct typical of dispensational thought.

Why do you think Hebrews, in the passage you quoted, is referring to "Eternal life?"

The Archangel

 

Please read my comments before posting.

As far as marriage goes, you must "set aside" your ego/self and be "led by the Spirit".
This will lead you to fully understand agape as explained by Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 and following.
As long as both partners have the same relationship to the Holy Spirit (ie: "play by the same rules"), marriage will work just fine.
If this is in agreement with what Peter wrote, then that just further confirms Pauline Gentile doctrine.

The works of the flesh/ego/self are clearly to "manipulate" another person, and the methods seem endless.

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Charity [agape love] suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself [ego], is not puffed up [ego],